Jessie Ray Spivey of The Doudad joined Pansay & Maggie to explore some of the myriad reasons that masculine-identifying birthworkers continue to face issues with acceptance in the greater birth community.
We discussed necessity of trauma-informed care by all birthworkers to increase client comfort.
We address how awareness of the racism-driven disparities in perinatal morbidity and mortality is motivating more Black people to enter birthwork.
Jessie speaks to his work dissolving "gender norms" and welcoming loved ones of all genders into support so that the expectant parent is supported by their whole village.
More conversation around this topic will be happening over in our facebook group!!
Check out this episode's full transcript & shownotes!
Jessie Ray Spivey of The Doudad joined Pansay & Maggie to explore some of the myriad reasons that masculine-identifying birthworkers continue to face issues with acceptance in the greater birth community.
We discussed necessity of trauma-informed care by all birthworkers to increase client comfort.
We address how awareness of the racism-driven disparities in perinatal morbidity and mortality is motivating more Black people to enter birthwork.
Jessie speaks to his work dissolving "gender norms" and welcoming loved ones of all genders into support so that the expectant parent is supported by their whole village.
More conversation around this topic will be happening over in our facebook group!!
Check out this episode's full transcript & shownotes!
Maggie, RNC-OB 0:06
Welcome to Your BIRTH Partners, where our mission is to cultivate inclusive collaborative birthcare communities rooted in autonomy, respect and equity. I'm your host, Maggie Runyon, labor and birth nurse, educator and advocate. And I invite you to join us in conversation, as we step out of our silos, break down barriers and hierarchies and step into the future of better birth care.
In this episode, we are continuing our series surrounding biases and benefits. We're looking to topics where because of a lack of knowledge or understanding or inaccurate information, we've perhaps developed biases around an idea, or we just haven't explored it enough to really understand what the potential benefits can be. So in that light, we are turning our attention this week to the hyper-gendered world of birth work, that often actively excludes people who don't identify as women. What it comes down to is that there is still significant work to be done to grow our understanding and acceptance of the place of all genders within birth work. In previous episodes of the podcast, we've talked about the effect that environment has on the non-binary, gender non-conforming or trans person experiencing birth care in our country. And unfortunately, the reality is that it's actually harmful some of the practices that we've put into place. And of course, there is a time and place to recognize and acknowledge the power of birthing women and honor the journey of mothers. But there's also plenty of room and space and value in talking about the experiences of all birthing people and using inclusive language to represent expectant parents and pregnant folks. And so as we continue to reflect on this, one thing that came to my mind is how gendered the birth professional, birth community continues to be. And I think this is for a myriad of reasons that are worth exploring and understanding why there is still not as much acceptance for masculine identifying birth workers to be actively involved in our communities, and to talk about ways that we can change that to be more inclusive, more welcoming, and ultimately to meet the needs of all the birthing people that we care for. So to that end, I'm really excited to welcome on Jessie Ray Spivey, as a guest on the show this week. Jessie is a doula and has an incredible why to share with you all about what brought him to birth work and how he's pursuing this and what it means for him to be a Black man in birth work. We're also joined by Pansay Tayo, who will be sharing with us some of her experiences and how she's grown to understand the relevance and importance of including masculine-identified doulas in the community. On to the show!
So we are so excited to have a special guest on today. And I am just so thrilled to have you here, Jessie and wanted to explore more about your work and what brought you to birth work. And we're gonna dive into all of this. So if you want to just kind of introduce yourself to our audience and it just give us the you know, the highlights of kind of who you are, what work you do, and what brought you to birth work.
Jessie, Doula 2:56
Absolutely. My name is Jessie Ray Spivey. I am the creator and founder of The Doudad, which is a platform and space that encourages masculine identified persons to be a part of the birthing process and the ritual that is birth. My mother has largely influenced my decision to come into birth work. She has been working in birth for over 15 years now in Sacramento, where I'm from, I'm based in Oakland, and that's where I do my work as well. But she's been a huge inspiration on my journey, just seeing her work in underserved communities, providing doula services, and support for people who don't have that support during pregnancy, which is super important. So yeah, I'm very happy to be here.
Maggie, RNC-OB 3:43
Absolutely. Great to have you. And Pansay, do you want to just remind everyone who you are and how you're involved?
Pansay, Doula 3:50
Yes, I am Pansay Tayo, owner and operator of Sacred Butterfly Births and the Sacred Pause Red Room community sacred space. I have been part of Your BIRTH Partners for some time now and very grateful for that. I am a doula and placenta encapsulator, also teach childbirth education classes, facilitate and host sacred ceremony for pregnancy and postpartum trainings, and glad to be here.
Maggie, RNC-OB 4:20
Yay. Well, thank you so much. I wanted to bring you all both on here because one of the things we're doing through this season of the podcast is exploring all these places where we have kind of our blank spots. Where are we there as birth professionals, we haven't explored a topic enough so we don't understand the benefits of it. And or we've kind of developed our own biases around it based on limited knowledge. As a nurse who's work predominantly in hospital spaces, one of the things that I often see is that there is there's just a little bit of a rub when masculine defying birth workers are in this space, outside of male OB-GYNs... So it feels like often you know, OBs came in 100-150 years ago, swept through, totally dominated what up till then had been a space that they were really excluded from, pushed everyone out to the side. And then slowly, nurses were allowed to kind of come back and enter that space. And that was kind of accepted. And then you know, we've kind of really teensed back in with having more doulas and more community support kind of accepted within the hospital sphere, but that there is still kind of this like, ooh, male-identified doula or having a masculine-identified labor and delivery nurse is still kind of seems to like catch people off guard a little bit more. And so I wanted to have the opportunity to kind of explore that idea a little bit more. And, you know, what, what's going on there? You know, why are we still kind of having that? I'd love to hear from you all kind of touching on that piece of it.
Jessie, Doula 5:51
I mean, I can jump in and say that, even based on my experience coming into the birthing industry, there's still taboo around a masculine identify person being in a space that is largely women centered. And I think that it just, it's, it's what society has drilled into our head, that there's this definite that there's this fine line, and between what women do and what men do, and there's no kind of some time in between or intermingling. And it's an outdated mindset. I think that goes back to even some, some of the other things that come along with that, from those mindset. It's like, you know, women being in the kitchen and things like that, like, you know, I just think that that those things all tie to those old mindsets. And it's unfortunate, but I do see and hope to be a part of the change.
Pansay, Doula 6:43
From my standpoint, this is, you know, personal experience in the hospital setting doing the births when we've had maybe a, you know, male nurse, or is different, it's different. I can't say that... sometimes you do get the same reaction from the client, when it's a male doctor, right? I've had that also where they are very insensitive, you know, to the, to the client to the patient. I've also had that with male nurses. I mean, as recent as last year, I could recall a male nurse telling telling my client, you know, all "it's not that bad. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. You can do this, my mom, my mom had all of her babies. So easy." I mean, I really couldn't believe what he's saying. And I'm like, wow, you're not helping. Right? All. I mean, it was so insensitive. The other part of that is in a hospital setting clients are already on uncomfortable, right? Strangers, you know, where they have to undress. We have a lot of women who has has dealt with, or has past trauma of sexual abuse. So even when you know, doctors come in, male doctors come in and maybe want to examine them, they feel uncomfortable with the male presence with unresolved trauma or just from their past experience. Again, it's only from my experience that you know, with the male nurses that it just makes the client uncomfortable, you know, that they feel safer, and more relaxed with, you know, a woman that kind of knows what she's going through.
Maggie, RNC-OB 8:32
Yeah, mean, I think that piece about sensitivity is, is huge. And it is so unfortunate that your client experienced that from a nurse of any gender, and certainly, you know, I love being a labor and delivery nurse, and I work with many amazing colleagues. But we do all have different styles, and some of us are, truthfully, just not really well equipped to handle every situation. And we've touched on this before in previous episodes of the podcast, but I think this is an important piece to note about, you know, trauma informed care is crucial. And it really should be the foundation of any care that we are providing throughout you know, the whole pregnancy, birth, postpartum spectrum. And, unfortunately, it is really lacking in a lot of the traditional education that we receive, you know, nursing, medica, midwifery schools. And so we'll certainly you know, in the show notes link to some trauma informed care trainings that are available so that you know, those of you who are listening if some of these are kind of touching on, you know, sensitive parts for you and situations that you're not sure how to handle best to really support the person who's in your care. Those are some great resources to arm yourself with so that you can take better care of everyone rather than relying on, you know, pat or misinformed responses that can actually do more harm. That being said, absolutely within that piece of it, we need to respect what, you know, the client, what the patient wants and what they're comfortable with. And I do wonder if like you said that there tends to be a little bit more hesitancy around the labor and birth nurse instead of the physician, that feeling is that comes from the intimacy that feels like it's in this space, compared to maybe like a more clinical feel that a physician exactly maintains. I remember in nursing school, one of my friends in my clinical group, he did not, he was not able to see any birth and be a part of it, because clients, patients were continually just not comfortable with his presence, and certainly we ask that of everyone, because they it's, you know, it's a shared experience. But I wonder, you know, Jessie, as you kind of moved into this and pursuing this work, how do you kind of combat that, that, unfortunately, there, for some people, for maybe even a lot of birthing people, there is kind of this little, like, they're not used to, like you said, just that, you know, the way we've set up our culture, they're not used to as much as looking to a masculine-identifying person to provide that sort of more like, nurturing, caring presence.
Jessie, Doula 11:28
I think mention of sensitivity was really hitting the nail on the coffin is that men are taught to not be sensitive. And so for me, I was raised by and brought up around a lot of women, and so I was taught or, you know, brought up that it is okay to, to be sensitive, and I tried to be really sensitive in the work that I do, because this space is, you know, a protected space. And it is such a ritual. And so I think that changes things for me is because I am sensitive to the fact that not every client is going to be, you know, warm or receptive to me or want to work with me, and that's okay. You know, but the clients that I do work with, I am sensitive, because I do and I try, I try to make a point to learn, and I have taken the time and energy to learn about, you know, the woman's body and what goes on there. And I really try to exert that in what I do. And so I feel like that maybe makes people more comfortable when it when I let them know, I can show them that I do know what I'm doing. I do know what I'm talking about. And I am just as capable as a female doula or my female counterpart.
Maggie, RNC-OB 12:37
I wonder to because I think this is such a, like, multi layered issue. And something we've talked about in you know, the past on the podcast is obviously that, you know, not all birthing people identify as women, you know, and so, I also think there's that piece that part of it is that us as a society, we are stretching, in our understanding of what this is, and I think, like you said, you know, none of us are going to be the perfect care provider for anyone, you know, none of us are perfect, none of us are going to meet the needs of you know, every single person. So, I think it's really important that as we keep, you know, working together, and we're having referrals, and you know, we're growing our community that we're also recognizing that for some people, and that is whether they you know, identify you know, as femme or masculine of center, but that, you know, there is going to be more comfort actually, with having someone who is bringing more of masculine energy and who, you know, is having that flip side of the coin. That for some people they really want kind of that divine feminine sacred piece of it. But for a lot of other people, they also really they're tuning into their own kind of strong, masculine, powerful energy. I don't know if you all want to kind of touch on that piece of it, too.
Pansay, Doula 13:52
Well, I definitely go ahead. I definitely feel and understand, you know, your exact words, as far as we are stretching in our norm. Our norm is no longer, you know, our norm, and we're learning, I have to say, you know, personally, I am learning, you know, of the stretching and we do need, you know, someone to meet the needs of the people that I can't serve or the people that are not comfortable with me. Right. So I definitely know that there is a place for the masculine doula, you know, in this work, you know, we don't want anybody any birthing person left out everybody needs support. And in this day and time with things changing so rapidly. I love the fact that you're here, that you're here and I truly believe that the gifts that we are given we are given those gifts because people are waiting for you. There are people that your name is already written in their birth story. So here you are. Here you are. So though, you know, all of us might not understand that fully, you know, when we think about, you know, you know, a male doula, what is he doing, you know, here you have a purpose and a place in this work. And for a lot of birthing people, you're going to be the perfect match and provide them, you know, excellent support. And we have to understand that we can't do it all, you know, I'm just one tool, I cannot take care of, you know, every birthing person. So, you know, with that, that our mind should be open. That, you know, though I don't normally have, you know, handle certain types of clients, that there are doulas that are prepared and equipped to nurture and nourish them perfectly. Hmm.
Jessie, Doula 15:49
Yes, I definitely agree with you. And I think for me, one of the reason that I even saw myself started to see a path for myself was because the clients that I'd shadowed and seen my mom working with were young mothers who were doing this alone. And so I saw myself often being able to slide into that position of support where there was nobody, there was no partner there, because they were giving birth by themselves, the partner did not, you know, want to be a part of the process. And so it was encouraging for me to as a black man, whether or not I'm queer, I'm still a black man. And I think that I wanted to be able to highlight and showcase, there are black men that are supporting birth in a positive way. And that could be it doesn't have to be the partner, it could be. You as a brother, as an uncle, as a nephew, as a cousin, you could step in when one of your family member says they're pregnant, and they don't mean to be doing it alone, you can step in and say I can be the doudad for them, you know what I mean?
Pansay, Doula 16:53
Yes.
Maggie, RNC-OB 16:54
Oh, I love that. I think that's just so powerful reframing, like you said, who was allowed, you know, like, who is supposed to all those kind of preconceived notions that we have like that. Because, like you said, I mean, I happen to be I have a younger brother, he's my only sibling, we're very, very close. And so absolutely, he has supported me through plenty of different life experiences that I don't have a sister, who's going to be there, you know, in that role. And so I think for so many people, like if that is, your person is, you know, your brother, your cousin, your best friend, since forever, happens to be a guy, that's all, that's fine. And that that doesn't mean that they need to step back, you know, they don't feel like there doesn't have to be this, you know, the veil get drawn, and that they're not allowed to step in and be a part of, of that piece of it. Do you feel like when you're Jessie, when you are working with clients? Do you do find that once they start working with you, and they kind of does that open up for them the idea of reaching out to other, you know, family members or loved ones who can provide that support? Like, do you ever get to kind of like, have conversations with them about that? Or does it not get to that level?
Jessie, Doula 18:06
I think I encourage that, that's actually kind of the motto of the doudad is just encouraging. Not just the support person to support but the village and creating that village, whoever that village is, you know, because oftentimes, if I'm there, and there's a support person and a birthing person, what I do, the support person can do too. But I'm also you know it as a doula, we're not just supporting the birthing person, we are supporting the birth as a whole. And so the support person needs support to sometimes that person sitting there like, they have no clue what to do. And you have to be able to be a guide for that person and say, let me show you that you could be you know, rubbing their feet or, you know, helping them breathe are whispering sweet nothings into their ear to help them feel better. You know, that's, that's definitely something I try to do. Absolutely. Yeah.
Margaret Runyon 19:02
I think that's really important. And I wonder, too. I know Pansay we've talked about this too, in the past where sometimes how people are viewing the role of the doula that people can get concerned about like replacement, you know, that sometimes partners get worried about like, "Where do I fit in with the doula if they're the one doing stuff?" And so I think that's just so it's so nice, how you're able to really kind of step in and show like, yes, this is how we all are.
Jessie, Doula 19:29
All hands on deck!
Maggie, RNC-OB 19:30
Yeah. Yeah, I just made that much more just inclusive and collaborative. Instead of it being it's not a one person show or a two person three person.
Jessie, Doula 19:40
There have been instances where the support for the birthing person is heavy, heavier, and it and there's been instances where it's lighter because the partner is stepping in. But you know, I think it's just all about it's like it's all a collaborative effort. So whether or not, I'm doing more or less, or the partners doing more or less, as long as we're all doing something And that mean helping the birthing person. That's all that matters. Yeah.
Maggie, RNC-OB 20:07
That's great. And then I think one of the things you touched on Jessie, you know, as a black man, you felt was really important to step into this. And you've watched your mother in, you know, in her role through birth support. And one of the things that I had noticed, through several trainings that I've taken over the last year, is that there are a lot more masculine identifying birth workers really stepping into this space. And I certainly credit that in part to the trainings that I've had the opportunity to participate in, really actively cultivate inclusivity in who they are reaching for birth workers. So they are making sure that people of all genders feel comfortable being in their trainings. And as part of that I have noticed, while certainly all races represented in these courses, that there have been a lot more Black and Brown, masculine identifying doulas stepping into this space. And so I've been reflecting on what is really pulling so many more Black and Brown folks to really support this work. And, you know, wondering if you want to speak a little bit more to the effect of the racism driven disparities in perinatal morbidity and mortality that we are continuing to face? And, you know, if you're seeing that reflected in how kind of the birth community is, is growing in, or if that's just something I'm seeing, you know, in my own bubble?
Jessie, Doula 21:38
I think you're 100%. Right. I think that, at least for me, that's one of that is one of the main reasons I do this, because our communities are being hit the hardest, and Black women and Black children are dying, more so than any other race. And I think that that is one part of the problem. The other part of the problem is the reasons why they are the fact that they're that's the reason and the the racism behind that that goes on in the hospitals that the treatment of Black and Brown people in a hospital, it speaks to a different issue. And I think that's what makes the motivating factor for so many people want to change that. And when Black men find out about that, I don't think they know that a lot of them don't even know that, that that that's happening, rates around birth are happening. And that could also speak to a different issue. But that is the issue. And I think when they find that out, and when they go through the births themselves, I think I've met a lot of guys or more masculine identified individuals who experience births themselves and see all the things they don't know and all the things that they thought they knew. And then inspires them to want to offer that service and educate and help other individuals and families. So it definitely encourages...those those, those statistics, disparities encourage other Black men to be involved and Black people to be involved. Really, I've seen doulas male female identified or, you know, otherwise identified and want to be a part of changing that. And I think that that's an amazing thing.
Maggie, RNC-OB 23:18
Absolutely, I mean, we certainly need people of any gender to step in, and, you know, and also any gender and any race to step in, to educate themselves on these disparities to become more aware of the racism that is inherent in our birthing system, so that we can actually do more than just talk about it, change policies, change systems to make it equally safe for everyone to come in, and, and have their baby and I am so appreciative of, you know, the work, both of you do. I know Pansay you also work predominantly with Black and Brown families to support them in, you know, in their birth journey, so that they can receive amazing care and really be supported through their process.
Pansay, Doula 24:05
Yes.
Jessie, Doula 24:07
Yes. Thank you both.
Maggie, RNC-OB 24:09
And then I think, you know, as we, as we kind of wrap up this discussion, I want to talk about like so as, as birth professionals, as fellow birth workers, what are the ways that you feel like we can particularly kind of help to do change this narrative, and to create more more acceptance both kind of for us on professional levels that when we meet someone who's a, you know, male identifying doula, we don't go like, "ooh I have never met someone who does that" and kind of how do we navigate that on that kind of professional standpoint for ourselves? And then how can we also just kind of keep pushing this idea that you've talked to so well, that really, anyone can be providing, you know, excellent birth support, it isn't something that has to be reserved for only, you know, part of the population, right.
Pansay, Doula 24:56
I feel just as you know, we've done here being things that were that we don't know about, we need to, you know, do our part and research and learn more about it. You know, it's only fair before you make judgment, you know, of something, you know, for us to come together and, you know, common spaces to discuss that work and what is the common ground here of health and helping the community and, and birthing people. So I think that just move past, you know, your quick decision, and dig a little bit deeper research, get to know, you the reasoning, of why they're here, and also understanding that there are people that, you know, that are in need of their services. And that's been sticking out the most to me that, you know, just off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a few of my belly buddy moms,for childbirth education, where we would, you know, help some of the young mothers and he would have been perfect for, you know, personality-wise, I know that there are people that would gel and align with his services, so perfect. So knowing that that that he has a place, he has a place within this work, and it's a very special place.
Jessie, Doula 26:12
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, I think these kind of nice conversations, the desire to even know this, one of the things I will say is coming to into birth, birth work, there are people that they may not be unwelcoming in the physical sense, like they may not be actively doing things tend to be unwelcoming to you. But sometimes by not even acknowledging someone's presence. That's, that's a sign I think, and, and so just acknowledging someone and saying, what we're, you know, getting to know the whys of, why it why people are interested in this work and what why they're doing what they're doing, I think is opens the door for more people to see and understand. You know, birth work is not a female industry. It's not, there's no, there's, you don't have to be a female to work in birth work. It's like anything else in life, you don't have to be things that in life aren't limited to your gender. So that definitely doesn't apply to birth work. And it doesn't apply to birth either. And I think once people are able to shift their mindsets and get uncomfortable, because in order to grow, you got to get uncomfortable, right? I think once people are willing to get uncomfortable, is when we can really be comfortable with what's going on in birth and it's changing. There are male doulas there, they're coming. They're here, they're already here. They'rehappening. There's masculine identified birth workers all around I know some amazing individuals who are masculine identified birth workers and who have had the experience of and the ritual of birth themselves and now are turning that into work themselves, to educate others on how that process went for them. And I think that's an amazing thing that I myself am even learning so even though I'm here to change and teach people things, I'm here to learn as well about things I don't know. And I think if we kick that mindset off, and we keep doing the work and focus on the work and and keep that the why we're doing the work is in keep that important. I think that's what's really going to change things and make things different.
Maggie, RNC-OB 28:19
Yes. Oh, there's so much good stuff there. Yeah, I obviously I completely agree with you too. But just that acceptance and like you said, just broadening our horizons, listening to other people's stories and just changing the personal narrative that we all have built up through from our you know, our childhood, whatever we understood birth to be about or not, you know, who we saw supporting it and then you know, certainly as we get into professional spaces, like opening our eyes to see who's around us because to your point, obviously, there are plenty of people out there who have been doing this work who are doing this work, I think social media gives us such a great opportunity to you know, change our ideas around a little bit, broaden our horizons if in our local community we aren't seeing this yet you know, if you personally don't have someone that you can refer to you know, right in your community that you know and we'll certainly when we you know go through the podcast and put on like show notes and stuff we'll be linking to you know, some other masculine-identifying birth workers who you can you know, like and follow and you know, see kind of how do they support birth what is you know, what else are they kind of bringing to it so we can kind of learn more about that that lens kind of grow our our understanding about you know, what it means to to be a birth worker.
Jessie, Doula 29:34
Definitely.
Margaret Runyon 29:35
And I love your point about just the why like, I think you have such like I loved listening to your why and but what brought you to this and I think absolutely all of us who work as birth rose like have a really powerful why.
Unknown Speaker 29:47
I think it's important as a man to or at least for me as a masculine identified birth worker to have that because that's the first thing people are gonna want to know. Why are you here and I'll be able to tell them and not only will I be able to tell them I'm showing them as well.
Maggie, RNC-OB 30:02
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's beautiful. Well, Pansay, Jessie, is there anything else you wanted to kind of share with our audience before we wrap up here?
Jessie, Doula 30:12
Stay tuned. Follow my Instagram @thedoudad. I am going to be premiering my series spilled milk season two is going to be premiering in April. And I'm really excited about that. It's a series about birth work. And I'm really going to up the ante with the level of conversations I'm having next season. So you can catch up on season one in my igtv channel on my page as well, as well as my other series, the hot chocolate Chronicles, which focuses on lactation awareness, and I just wrapped that up, a Black History Month edition of that up so you can catch up on those episodes on my page. And stay tuned for season two of spilled milk.
Maggie, RNC-OB 30:54
Oh, yes, that is so exciting.I can't wait. I want to go through and see, I caught one last month. But I'm excited to go back and see the first season of spilled milk as well.
Jessie, Doula 31:03
Absolutely.
Pansay, Doula 31:04
Thank you so much for joining us, Jessie.
Jessie, Doula 31:07
Thank you, Bo, both and thank you for doing the work that you do. I'm inspired constantly by people, great people doing great work. So thank you for inspiring me. And thank you for having me today.
Maggie, RNC-OB 31:19
So excited partner with you.
Pansay, Doula 31:21
Very nice to meet you.
Jessie, Doula 31:23
Likewise. Thank you.
Pansay, Doula 31:24
Yes.
Margaret Runyon 31:27
Thanks for tuning in. We love to learn and grow alongside with you. Please follow us at Your BIRTH Ppartners across social media. And in particular, we'd love to invite you to join us in our Facebook group, Your BIRTH Partners community. There we have a chance to dive into this week's podcast topic a little bit more deeply and work through some of the challenges of taking these topics and actually changing our practice so that the birth care we provide is more collaborative, inclusive and equitable. You can also check out our show notes for more of the resources that we mentioned in the show including information about trauma informed care and where to find Jessie's latest offerings including the next season of spilled milk. I look forward to hearing your feedback. Till next time!