Unbiased & Representative Birth Education #034

Cheyenne Varner of The Educated Birth joins us this week to talk about fostering inclusion & autonomy in childbirth education materials.
She shares about the homogenous birth images & resources that didn't reflect her family & her community and led to her creation of The Educated Birth materials.
Cheyenne dives into the harm to both birthing people and birthworkers when we are faced with limited images & a limited mindset around the possibilities of birth.
She explains why representation of a variety of races, identities, family structures, and birth outcomes is crucial to changing the birth narrative, and how centering Black & Brown birthing bodies in birth education fits into the larger conversation of shifting perinatal care disparities.
We discuss the negative impact of one-sided birth education materials that present only one version of "ideal" birth.
We also explore how storytelling, like in Cheyenne's Everyday Birth Magazine, can change the future of birth & how we relate to others with our birth stories.

Transcript

Maggie, RNC-OB  0:06  
Welcome to Your BIRTH Partners, where our mission is to cultivate inclusive collaborative birthcare communities rooted in autonomy, respect and equity. I'm your host, Maggie Runyon, labor and birth nurse, educator and advocate. And I invite you to join us in conversation as we step out of our silos, break down barriers and hierarchies and step into the future of better birth care. 

Hey there! Welcome back. This week, we are digging into all things childbirth education, birth education, as we go to examine how we are bringing all of this information that we are also passionate about, to those who are in our care. So we are diving into some of the issues that have been present in birth education in terms of representation, and where it has been lacking. And also addressing some of the ways that we can truly provide unbiased information that puts the power right where it should be, in the birthing person's hands, so that they can truly understand all of the array of choices that are available for them, and are able to make really educated decisions that reflect their best interests, their desires, their hopes for their birth. And as part of this conversation, I am so excited to welcome Cheyenne Varner onto the show, she will be sharing more about what led her to birth education, and why that has been such a cornerstone and important part of her work is sharing more with families and with other birth professionals, and changing the face of birth education. So without further ado, on to the show. 

So I am really excited to talk about this. Today we are diving into all things birth education, and how do we kind of meet people with where their needs are fill in gaps of knowledge, how do we model the births that we want to see and really like open up people's eyes to what childbirth education can be. So I am really excited to introduce our guests. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey as a birth worker?

Cheyenne, Birthworker  2:21  
Yeah, absolutely. Hi, I'm Cheyenne Varner, and I'm in Richmond, Virginia. I've been a birth worker for five, almost six years now started in 2016. And I mean, my kind of journey into all of this, I'm the oldest of four, we're all pretty spread out. So I was really engaged and aware when my mom was pregnant with my sister, Ilan and my brother miles. And then my youngest sister was born when I was in college, and she came into our family through foster care, and then adoption. So she was three days old, and she came home. And, you know, it was really interesting for me to see my mom go through a postpartum period without pregnancy. Before it. And even when I was seven or eight, when my sister was, you know, being born, I was reading my mom's baby books, like the thick ones and not like, you're going to be a big sister book. And for a little while, I thought I might get into medical school and go, you know, try to be an OB. But by the time I got to college, I just kind of knew that wasn't the route for me. So I kind of put all that stuff away and went into nonprofit work, wanting to do things that were educational, that were still really supportive of families and young people. And then in 2016, I learned about birth work. And pretty much I learned about it, someone in my network said, Oh, I know someone who's a doula. And then I was at a training within a couple of months. Yeah. And I interned at a local birth center for some time. And yeah, I mean, the rest is kind of history. I started working with families in Richmond and beyond. I've done a couple, you know, births in other states, too. That's kind of my birth work story. But at the same time that I was becoming a birth worker, I was also noticing that there were there was a lack of representation in childbirth education. And that's how the educated birth and everyday birth magazine started. You know, all of that.

Maggie, RNC-OB  4:33  
Yes. Oh, I love all that. I love that, like, we've been talking about, like the whys what brings us into you know, this work, and I just I love that it's started at such a young age really, you just had this interest in and passion and like understanding more about such a pivotal part of people's lives. So that's beautiful. And yeah, so I wanted to bring you on today particularly to kind of dive into some of these like nuances of childbirth education and in this whole series, we Kind of discussing, like, where are some of the things that we hold biases? So whether we're really conscious or unaware of them? And you know, where do we kind of then because of those sounds like miss out on, like the true benefits of something. And I felt like childbirth really fits into that piece, I think, probably for people outside of birth work, and maybe some even in birth work, childbirth education seems like this like, fuzzy, warm, like, overwhelming positive thing. And it is good and necessary. But I, I wonder if you want to speak a little bit to what you saw, then and elaborate on that when you came into work and how you started actually, like childbirth education was perpetuating some of these, like biases within birth?

Cheyenne, Birthworker  5:41  
Yeah, I mean, what stood out to me automatically was that I really didn't see black women represented in childbirth education materials, you know, I'm a black woman, I come from a family of black women and men, you know, lots of different skin tones, lots, lots of different hair textures, lots of different, you know, everything. And that's what I was, I was looking to see people who, you know, reflected, me and all the people I grew up with, and a lot of the people that I would be working with. And I couldn't find that. And so, you know, I started, I've always been kind of a hobbyist Illustrator. And so I started just creating materials of my own that, that showed that. And then once I started sharing it online, a couple local people were like, you should put this on Facebook and other people. And I was like, okay, and when I did, I mean, there was just an explosion of a response from people from all across the US who were like, "where did you get this? Wow, this is awesome. I've never seen this, no one does that." And so that's when I realized, like, oh, like, it really doesn't exist, that, you know, there's that kind of, you know, centering and as time has gone on, you know, I've kind of dissected this issue more and more, and found how, you know, I think it's really, it's a symptom of a much larger issue, which is that a lot of in health care and medical, in the medical world, the primary image of you know, a pregnant person is a white cis woman who is thin and in about her 20s, when you kind of narrow everything down, you know, that's like the primary image that we're we're getting. And, you know, it's not a problem for that image to be there at all. It's just an issue, because not everybody fits that image. And so there is on a variety of levels, a disconnect between people who are taking care of pregnant people and those pregnant people if they're not, you know, fitting that mold. And I think it also like it sends a message to people themselves when they're going into spaces, and they're seeing reflections of time in their lives that they don't fit into.

Maggie, RNC-OB  8:09  
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I yeah, I think it you know, it is it's a symptom, like you said, of this, just this bigger narrative where white people have dominated everything in our country. And so because they were the people in in power, and that that has been able to perpetuate that, okay, well, of course, every birthing person looks like this. And it's this, you know, picture of this smiling, cis-assumed, heterosexual, you know, married couple, like you said, in their 20s.  While that fits many people. And, honestly, that fit me when I was, you know, giving birth. That isn't everyone. And I think we do such a disservice. And we certainly do it, like you said, to the people who are giving birth who are looking around to see like, how does, how could birth work for me? How would I? How could this possibly play out and as like, in the bigger birth care community, we keep sending this signal to ourselves as birth workers that like, this is what birth looks like, this is what a person giving birth is going to look like and so these are the kinds of supports that they're going to have. These are like the basic kind of cultural assumptions that they are bringing into birth. And that leaves so many people, the majority of people actually, out because we create such a narrow window for what is like accepted.

Cheyenne, Birthworker  9:31  
Yeah, and there's so many intersections, I think the the, you know, the overarching message is that we need to be more attuned to all the different intersections and really, you know, engage with people and create our education mindfully so that people who are coming from different perspectives and different experiences can still be spoken to and know still know that they are welcome within it because every white person isn't going to isn't going to ask identify with all of these images, either there's a vast amount of, you know, variety and diversity within each race, each background, you know, each segment. But yeah, we've just, it's just been something that I think the dots of why this is problematic have not been very connected and have not been very, you know, they've been underestimated this being an issue and the fact that it connects, you know, it connects to the kind of care that people are getting, you know, like, I sound like a symptom of a bigger problem. I think as people are understanding that this is an issue where we talk more about the maternal mortality crisis, and how that you know, impacts certain people more than others, then it's like, Okay, well, we do have like an effect happening here. So how can we kind of rewind and look at the broader picture? And what things can we can we rework what things can be add to, you know, that's really what we're talking about here is adding so that there's no longer just one image that comes up in Google one image that comes up in our heads. But we start to think in more of a spectrum and then more of a broader way.

Maggie, RNC-OB  11:15  
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I do, I love how your, the work that you have created really touches on all of those different, like you said, different different racial backgrounds, different skin tones, different identities, so you're having different, different, like, you know, family makeups, whether it's single parents and you know, queer couples, it's, I think I've seen polyamorous imaging as well, like, you are really covering all those bases, you're speaking to, you know, cis bodies and trans bodies, you are showing that there is so much more than, and it's and it's also not just like, there's not a binary. And it's really to be inclusive of just like all of the different ways that that we show up at birth, and that all of those are like they are all dignified, they're all worthy of that same respect and care, that ultimately will get us to equitable treatment, which, like you said, we're, unfortunately nowhere close to that. And those racism driven perinatal mortality disparities can't change unless each of these pieces all come together from the care provider practice that we put into place to the imagery that we have that reinforces what what a good birth looks like, and what people want. And I'd love to if you can kind of speak to that piece. So you have the representation within your work in terms of like birthing people's identities, but then you also have done such an incredible job about really showing, showcasing a huge variety of what, what birth should be. And that's, that's a very heavily in quotes, because I think a lot of you know, a lot of times we get this kind of like ideal birth image, which is obviously not the same for anyone. And yeah, so if you want to kind of spend like, how have you, through your material also shown, like really a diversity of experience and goals within birth?

Cheyenne, Birthworker  13:11  
Yeah, so I can step back for a second and say, for anyone who might not be familiar with the work that I do, the educated birth creates educational materials, teaching tools for birth workers and childbirth educators, and other reproductive health workers. And so a lot of it is illustrations, I do handouts that are, you know, infographics that I try to do my best to really condense information and make it simple, a lot of it is like jumping off points, so that people who are teaching things can like use that as like a starter with their clients. And then, you know, dig into more detail, expound upon that, beyond that, and, you know, we have an Instagram account, we share all kinds of educational things on there, a lot of it is illustrative and kind of infographic handouts, when it comes to showing kind of the spectrum of you know, quote, unquote, good birth or what, you know, different births can look like. I think that, you know, I just have tried to look at a lot of different stories, you know, reflect on the experiences that, you know, I've seen my my clients go through families that I've worked with, and and think about, you know, how can I think a lot of it is kind of expectation setting to I think what I strive to do whenever I'm writing something about, you know, birth is again to like center it all around the person who's reading it rather than a specific outcome or, or, or thing you know, whether we're talking about positions that you're going to be in, throughout labor or in birthing like, I just tried to, like, show the plethora, like show as much as possible, and make statements that are more like, you know, you will just With your, you know, for support with your care provider, you will listen to your body will, in your labor, figure out what the best call or just the decision that you feel most comfortable with is going to be. And I think some of that, too, is also holding space for the fact that even in those scenarios, we still don't always have births that we feel great about, you know, sometimes it's just not what we expected. And so it's hard, you know, to grapple with, sometimes it is interfered with by providers who are not working with us in a in a really ethical or ideal, or kind, compassionate way. And sometimes there is trauma in our, in our birth experiences, or sometimes there is a true emergency and an experience. And then that is often traumatic, even though the care might be supporting us the best they can in that in that emergency. So I think I also just try to hold space when discussing birth, that all of these things are possible, and let that reader know, it's okay. It's like, a sheet cannot tell you, you know, what your outcome is going to be or what the right outcome for you is going to be. But we can tell you like, it's okay that it's hard, you know, it's okay that it's beautiful. It's okay that it's joyful, like, set all of that expectation and just try to try to wrap it up as best we can.

Maggie, RNC-OB  16:29  
I love that I think it's so important to, to keep saying that over and over. And over again, like there is this just huge range of experiences, and that none of them are inherently good or bad. Like it is so about what the individual person who gives birth and goes through it like how they perceive it. And I think that is I have had the opportunity to teach childbirth education several times over the years in a couple of the hospitals that I worked in as a nurse and then also like privately in the community. And I think one of the things that I've struggled with is that, you know, in many hospital based systems there is that whole, you're kind...you're certainly really educating about general general options, but then inevitably, you end up speaking to what the policies are, at, you know, the place of birth, assuming that they're planning to give birth at the hospital. And I do think there is like there is value in knowing in knowing what you're getting into and understanding like, hey, these are things that are going to be difficult situations, these are there's routers, where you need to really like kind of push back and discuss this more with your provider. And that can be helpful. But I think there's also just that that piece where there does still feel like there is a there is a thread there is like the way that birth is done here. And that can be really hard for someone who's coming in who doesn't know anything about birth, who has, you know, no background in it to like to work through the nuance of that and understand like, Okay, what, what do I actually want from my birth, and then I feel like a lot of when I was looking through for materials to teach in the community independently. So many of the childbirth education programs I came across, were just very dogmatic. Hmm. Kind of like, in some ways, like kind of the flip coin, like just that there is, this is how birth is is going to look, this is what your ideal birth will be realized when all of these things happen. And obviously, I do think there is power in, in visualizing, you know, what you want your birth to be, and in walking through that, but I think there is just so many of them are really rigid, an expectation, and like you said, I think that that sets folks up to be disappointed.

Cheyenne, Birthworker  18:40  
Yeah, I think the best example I can think of or something that I'm proud of, though, I think we did well as a Instagram post that we did about dilation that showed it as a chart of like, at the bottom, it's like start and you know, at the other end, it's birth, and then there's kind of the expectation that there would be this straight line going from, you know, zero centimeters that mark straight up to 10 centimeters where birth happens, right? We expect that to be like a straight line. And when we you know, I was just listening to a podcast, where I don't know if it was evidence based birth or birth pole, they were talking about Friedman's curve, you know, the idea, you know, that birth and people do, you know, progress and dilate at a certain curve. And so we expect there to be like some consistency, but in reality, you have people who are like, not very dilated for a long time and then get dilated really fast and have a baby and you have people who get to six centimeters and then are not dilating further for a while and then get the rest and have a baby and you have people who like tylee really fast from the beginning. Like we did this graph where we just showed all those different lines, all those Oh, I love that. All those different things. And that's how, you know i think you know, My perspective and the educated birth kind of philosophy of approaching these different options, or these different variables in birth and postpartum to being like, Hey, you could fall on the spectrum in any of these different places. Like, know that that's okay. But also, like, we should know, and we should communicate with our providers and our support people to discuss, like, why maybe something is not, you know, dilating, or this is, you know, this is average for a lot of people in the air like we can still, that doesn't mean that we just let everything go. And we don't engage with the process and figure out what we can do. You know, it just means that we, we understand that bodies are not machines. Yeah, bodies are not machines. So, you know, we kind of we hold, we hold space for that. And I think a lot of the, you know, the onus for that is, is really on the people supporting pregnant people. It's really on on care providers. And one other small caveat, I spoke with a oncologist I didn't interview what there's an oncologist, someone who works with cancer patients who I interviewed for my alumni magazine, because I, every once in a while, I have a little extra time.

Maggie, RNC-OB  21:17  
[laughter] In all your free time? 

Cheyenne, Birthworker  21:20  
Yes, yeah. Now my free time, but it was beautiful. Because she, you know, I asked, she's apparently very well known for communicating through really, really difficult conversations with her patients and their families. And, you know, I was asking her about about that. And she just said, Well, I do more listening than talking. And, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about things that are not medical at all. And we just, you know, there is always hope. But this is also life. So when people are coming to see me like, yeah, they're expecting, they might have expected to live 20 years and have a diagnosis of one more year. And that's difficult and awful, but like, you can still hold space within that. And she said at the end that they have patients who come back and visit them. And they're like, and they're like, what are you doing back here, and they're like, well, we love it here. And they're like, this is chemo, body love it here. And it's like, you know, if a chemo doctor, and she also has learned about all kinds of holistic things, because her patients kept asking her about it. And so she decided to go do a fellowship in it, and come back and integrate it into her medicine. Like, if a if a doctor who works with people who are seriously seriously, you know, Ill that could be fatal can get to know her patients intimately talk to them about things that are not just medical, and make that experience so supportive, that many of them come back to visit. Know, then people who work with people giving birth should be able to make an experience that makes those people want to come back and visit.

Maggie, RNC-OB  23:07  
Yes. Oh, I look Yes. That it's so important. We, you know, however, we have, like you talked about, I think it comes back to that whole, like, within the medical industrial complex, you know, we've been taught to view bodies as machines, right? And so we are expecting like, yep, here's another one coming in, they're just gonna do doo doo doo doo, dilate, have the baby Check, check, check. And we miss the human component of that, like, an absolutely, if someone who is dealing with people who are very much in like a life and death experience that is really, really heavy, you know, we are on on the other side of that we are also living dealing with thing that is really heavy, but there is so much joy and possibility in there for us to connect with something that is such a shared experience, you know, like for the vast majority of people that I've worked with, over the years have had their own children, you know, and so certainly, like, you've been here, you, you have done this, yeah, we so often don't even just take that time to like, just connect and relate that, like, while they're having they can have a completely different experience than you had. This is still someone who's like going through a major transformation, you've done this as well, you know, how heavy this whole period is? And yeah, we need to like connect and if that like, that leads me to that like that gatekeeping piece in terms of like, how do we make this information more accessible? Like how do we make it so that every birthing person is able to get more of the information that they they need and it's not just limited by whatever their provider may or may not have found the time to, you know, discuss without better give an appointment?

Cheyenne, Birthworker  24:50  
Yeah, I mean, my short answer to that is make it more human. You know, make it less like your, you know, your going, you're doing some kind of academic, rigorous academic activity, and more like you're learning about, you know, your body, the realm of possibilities of, you know, what can come up things to be aware of, you know, I think I, you know, deeply encourage all of my clients to go to a childbirth education class, you know, go to one where you can, you know, if it's virtual right now, fine, you're still going to be in a virtual classroom with other parents that you can connect with, you know, with someone live in front of you, so that, you know, if you're reading a book, then it's just you in the book, like, there's no conversation there. And even if you have like me as a doula, you know, my door is always open my phone, you can always text me and everything like that, but it's really significant to be able to ask lots of questions and hear other people's questions and, you know, hold space for each other in in that you guys are maybe all new all first time, or some of you are all second time, or some of y'all have a bunch of kids and you can kind of commiserate with each other. Like, talk with each other about what that's like, I think there's so much just on like a physiological and mental level that we, we get, you know, I think a lot of this is really about, it's about making people aware of things so that they're not blindsided in the moment and feeling like deer in headlights, like stuck on what to do next, it's also just about them being heard. And seen, and, you know, it can just reducing the stress of, of not knowing what to do. And I think a lot of people it's like, at the end of it when they get done with a, you know, learning, I think from my prenatals, it's like, it's not just about them feeling like they've gotten all the knowledge because everyone's dealing with their everyday life. At the same time. You know, nobody's existing in a pregnancy in like a vortex where like, all they're doing is being pregnant all day, they have work, they have family, they have like, friends, they have all kinds of dynamics going on in their lives. So I think a lot of it is that coming out of these appointments, they feel like, okay, I did something constructive, productive, like, you know, that's good to do. But I also like, have this person on my team. And I was able to, like, spend this time with them and talk with them. And like, I have a good feeling about the fact that we're going to, you know, move forward together. I think that that does, like, does a lot. Yeah.

Maggie, RNC-OB  27:56  
Obviously, I mean, I just want to see so much more of that connection, you know, and finding those ways. And like you said, I think there's that there's that power in taking in information. And then there's also just tremendous power in just in being heard and being seen for like who and where you are, you know, right then in, in that moment without, you know, stripping away the the pretense and the what we think we should be feeling or should be doing in, you know, given moment. And I think the other piece, too, and something that you've done really with, like, every birth magazine, is really like that power of storytelling, and the benefit that that has for both the teller and you know, the person who gets to, to take that in, do you want to kind of elaborate on like, what, what led you that way? Cuz I think sometimes, like, so many of us, obviously, when we're pregnant, we hear all sorts of birth stories. And unfortunately, many of them have a negative impact on how you start to view the possibility of birth. So I'd love to hear more about you kind of how you've approached that.

Cheyenne, Birthworker  29:04  
Yeah, so everyday birth magazine came a year after I became a birth worker and started the educated birth. And the reason was, I was going to my ob at the time.  I now go to midwives for just well person care, I left that ob practice. And I was sitting in the waiting room forever, like a lot of us do. And I was reading the magazines that were there. And I have that same moment where I was like, I don't feel seen. I don't feel like this is really written with me in mind. I don't, you know, get this I'm looking through it and I see maybe a little bit of marketing to black parents, and you know, Latin parents, but like not a lot of genuine. Just not feeling genuine to me. And so, right around that time I was also working with my first postpartum client, who was, you know, and there's a wonderful woman who does marketing, and is also Asian American. And so we, you know, as we were sharing postpartum time together, when she wanted to just talk about things, we would just talk about stuff, you know, when she wasn't napping, or taking a shower or something. And so it just kind of, she was kind of familiar with my work, too. So we had started talking about different things. And I had mentioned my idea to do a magazine and she was like, it's happening, this is gonna start, it's gonna be out by Mother's Day. I think it was probably was in the fall of the year, before we started everyday birth magazine, and with her, you know, support and really, enthusiasm and encouragement, we got our first issue together. And it really was about and it is about, you know, integrating real life, you know, into this educational context where I wanted it to have that same tone, that same feeling that people would receive from the materials that were making it the educated birth, but with real photos and with people's real birth stories, and they want no, I was like, there's going to be a home birth story, there's going to be a birth center story, there's going to be a hospital birth story, and every issue that people can see, they can have a positive experience in any of these places. And they can understand a little bit about the difference between them when they're making their decision of what they want to focus in on. But they can no like, it can be good. Because it's crazy. But I think the reason why people do word vomit all of these terrible stories about birth to other people, especially pregnant people, is because we've not integrated this part of life into our normal conversation. So when they see a pregnant person, or they find out that they're, you know, someone that they know, his partner's pregnant, it's like that door in their head opens up to their, you know, traumatic birth story. And they're like, this is my opportunity. No, like, nowhere else. Can I talk about this? And so is this really like, awful? Like, that's not the that's not the one to talk to you about it. But we just haven't made it normal to have space to discuss it. So I think, you know, it goes back again, these are like symptoms of other. We had comprehensive sex ed, if we had like it normalized, that we just integrate these things into normal life, then people would not be word vomiting this to pregnant people all the time.

Maggie, RNC-OB  32:50  
Oh, that's such an important insight. Yeah, I have never I had, I appreciate you saying it. That way I hadn't totally like filled out that piece of like, what makes people then feel like, this is the socially appropriate time for me to share this information with you. And that, that piece of like, if you have not had the chance to like to tell your story to process it and to like integrate that into the rest of your experience. And you just have it in this like, little traumatic box that is waiting for like any ink toy, I think when we haven't taken the chance to, to take that time. And to inter process it on our own. There's so much to be said about how the the bias it goes into, like sharing about traumatic experiences and taking time to process things are impacting your mental and your emotional health. So like you said, then you don't just see someone who is pregnant and think I think sometimes that, you know, wonder is that? are you sharing it in that way that you think like, okay, I just haven't got a chance to talk about and also do you think you're protecting them? Like, do you think you're sharing something in a way that like, maybe this will help you not have this experience if I explained that this is what happened to me, you know, but instead it just comes across, like more of an attack than, than a defense, I think more often than not,

Cheyenne, Birthworker  34:04  
yeah, I'm sure in some of the contexts people are thinking like, you know, I want to tell them this so that they know, you know, and then that's where, you know, again, the you know, advice that's not asked for is just hard pass on that one, you know, and it's cut, you know, it's coming from a good intent. It's, I would say probably the majority of the time most of the time people are really you know, wanting to share something meaningful with other people but yeah, it's just falling a little short.

Maggie, RNC-OB  34:40  
Yeah, I love that imagery that like picturing everyday birth magazine and picturing like, materials from the educated birth being what is filling up spaces around the country that like when you walk into your ob your midwife whoever's you know, office it like, rather than ns solicited advice or just the barrage of like, intense medical information all at once, it is like too much to process that, like, if you have you have the magazine to like, take a copy, you get to like view these injury these stories one at a time where it's not just like information overload. Yeah, I would just love to see like, the handouts that you've created. Right there. Yeah, in the waiting room, like, yeah, take it. There's some laminated copies, if you're looking at here, but like, yeah, take one home look at like, I feel like we could just have that set up in a different way. So that people are able to, like, access the information that they that they want, and that they're ready for, and have time to like, process and reflect and then like, ask those questions that next time that they're bringing it back to their provider, they have a chance to be like, Hey, I, I read this, I looked into this more, I looked at, you know, this article, or I looked up something else here. And I have more questions, and it feels like a more natural unfolding of information throughout the whole time, you know, we're lucky, like, we're pregnant for several months, but there is there is a lot of time to, to actually familiarize with us, like with this whole transition is going to happen. And I feel like maybe we're not, I don't know, taking advantage of that. But as much in terms of how we could kind of appropriately dole out some of this information to reach people like where they are so that it doesn't feel like

Cheyenne, Birthworker  36:26  
a barrage. Yeah. Because again, I mean, everybody's living their lives, everybody has to deal with work, how they're paying the bills, what's going on, in their family, on on with their housing, what's going on with the world being on lockdown. So, you know, we, we have to reach people where they are, and if this, if this knowledge was just, you know, integrated into what we learned growing up, you know, if we didn't first learn about it when we're pregnant, and then that would really make a huge difference. And there are lots of communities where that is the case where people do, you know, grow up seeing births happening, and, you know, with people who are talking about it, like, you know, I, you know, our culture today, here in the US is just, I mean, when hospitals were created, they just moved at, you know, they moved everything to the hospital space. So we've gotten disconnected from it, and nothing has like really come into adequately fill, fill that gap.

Maggie, RNC-OB  37:38  
Yes. Oh, I do. I love the idea of this being like you said, being part of when we're talking through like, health, education, sex education with earlier, Junior High High School, you know, when we're really meeting people were like, this is all stuff to just like be aware of, because again, birthing people are going to be around you the rest of your life, you may as well know at least a little bit more about that experience, instead of feeling just completely shocked when you're finding yourself and now like, Oh, you You are the expected family and

Cheyenne, Birthworker  38:06  
Right. Yeah, and to have it. And to have it talked about as normal as where we haven't for dinner. Yeah. babies born. No, yeah. And like this trauma, scary, gross thing, you know, where it's like, you know, I think we did watch a video of a birth when I was in fifth grade as a as a part of health education. It was like, it was like, you know, oh, this terrible thing is, you know, being shown to us, and everybody's like, Oh, this is gross and terrible. You know, rather than learning about it,

Maggie, RNC-OB  38:38  
yeah. For my curious place of just like understanding something else that's, I know, well, and obviously at age, it's everyone's very cognizant of bodies and filling a lot of like, I think, a lot of growing pains that are happening there in terms of like, understanding bodies, and how they relate to each other and how that works. But I was really one of those kids watching like, tlcs birth story way back in the day and just like, hammered by the whole like, process of it and how it all how it all work. So yeah, I love I feel like there's also I don't know, if you're seeing Haley's book birth ABCs I also think it's a great it's a board book that is made for you know, I mean, any anyone of any age, but you know, especially to me, like kids when they're really little just to see, like in that same vein, like this is just, these are like little snippets, like this is normal. Yeah, some babies are born at the home. Some babies are born at a hospital. These are like, this is a midwife. This isn't Yeah, this is a do it. Like, these are what all these roles are so it doesn't feel like it's, you know, it's not something scary. It's not a secret. It's not anything bad or shameful or abnormal in any way. This is this is normal life. So

Cheyenne, Birthworker  39:41  
you say the truth you talk about what something is, in different ways as people, their minds, they get older, their minds, you know, grow in information and understand things differently. And so yeah, any I mean, they're probably lots of Kids out here who've, you know, come from birth work families. And so they grow up, they become adults. And they're like, so good. Because it was normalized in those spaces.

Maggie, RNC-OB  40:11  
Yeah, absolutely. We have little like picture, we had photography at the birth with my kids. And so we have little like picture, one of like board books that show like pictures of that. And my kids love just like looking through them and seeing like, oh, and that's when we first met you. And like, that's what was happening. So I hope at least that they'll feel like it's more just a part of life. Obviously, I talked about birth and babies all the time. So hopefully, that's trailing through, but Well, thank you so much. And is there anything else you would like to like, share with us before we wrap up?

Cheyenne, Birthworker  40:39  
Yeah, you know, I think, you know, when I talk about why representation and reproductive health education matters. I talk a lot now about Jenny Joseph's easy access clinic model and the JJ way, where, you know, the cornerstones of the care that they provide, there are access, connection, knowledge and empowerment. And, you know, evidence is showing studies and research of, you know, the work in her clinics has shown that there are better outcomes, they're less preterm birth, less low infant birth weight, and, you know, whether they're birthing in the clinic or in the hospitals, but they've, like, gotten care at the clinic. Yeah. So I think that, you know, the work that we're doing it the educated birth, I would say, connects largely with the knowledge and empowerment aspects of, you know, journey, Joseph's model. And so the more the quality of our care matters, and the experience that people have, when they walk in the doors, or they first engage with people, you know, are they feeling like they're welcome? Did they feel invisible to they feel like a burden, or misunderstood, or an afterthought, you know, like, these things really make a visceral difference, especially, you know, things compound, right. So if someone is having a really stressful time or experiences medically, then I think it matters even more the quality of the care that they feel like they're getting, or if they're just having really hard time at home, or at work, or wherever, again, it's like, if the quality of the care they're getting for their reproductive health is not good, then all of that stuff is confounding and making the issue more difficult. You know, our hope is really that people use this, you know, people integrate it into their, their teachings, and that it does spread and it is it becomes the norm, it becomes the standard. And, you know, wherever people go, they feel like, they're welcome to learn, they're, and they're taken care of. So I think when it comes right down to it, you know, humans want to feel loved and cared for, and they thrive in that, and they do not thrive, with the lack of that with the denial of that we need to work on making that fully integrated into every working person's experience.

Maggie, RNC-OB  43:14  
Yes, I, there's so much so much there that we can that we can do to increase that. And helping everyone to find their, their place within it. And then so for listeners who would like to like support your work more who want to be more involved in the educated birth? What's like the best way for them to do that?

Cheyenne, Birthworker  43:31  
Yeah, no, visit us on Instagram at be educated birth. Our website is the educated birth calm. We're also on Patreon. So we definitely invite folks to come out and support us on Patreon, there are lots of different perks and different things that you can get as a patron. So that's patreon.com/theeducatedbirth 

Maggie, RNC-OB  43:52  
That's awesome. I am really looking forward to hearing all the feedback from this and hearing how how everyone is kind of taking education around birth really to the next level so that we can include everyone in this process and see better outcomes because of it. Thank you so much for joining us. And I really appreciate it.

Cheyenne, Birthworker  44:11  
Thank you for having me.

Maggie, RNC-OB  44:13  
Thanks for tuning in. Well, I hope you love this conversation with Cheyenne, as we dissected more about what the future and the possibilities of childbirth education are, as we all move forward. And if you want to experience this for yourself, you're definitely want to head over to our Facebook group, Your BIRTH Partners community, where we are going to be sharing a giveaway for some materials from the educated birth. So join us there to enter into that. And otherwise, we'd love for you to follow us across social media, where were Your BIRTH Partners. We want to learn and grow alongside of you. So please head on there and let us know what you're thinking. And tell us a little bit more about what really struck you from this episode. You can also check out our show notes where we'll share a little bit more about Cheyenne and The Educated Birth and everyday birth magazine and will also share some other resources as you go to expand the information that you are sharing with clients through their pregnancy birth and postpartum. Till next time