Dr. Sharon Dongarra of Thrive Chiropractic joined Pansay of Sacred Butterfly Births & Maggie to explain some comment misconceptions about chiropractic care during pregnancy and identify how it can be used in tandem with medical or midwifery prenatal care to optimize wellness.
Chiropractic care has often been misunderstood and maligned by allopathic medicine...where do those biases come from and how can we grow more understanding of options for birthing people?
Join Sharon, Pansay, and Maggie as we explore:
~misconceptions: what chiropractic care IS and ISN'T
~fundamental philosophical differences between chiropractic & allopathic medicine
~"common discomforts of pregnancy" that may be helped with chiropractic
~increasing accessibility to chiropractic services
~creating supportive care communities for birthing people
Dr. Sharon Dongarra of Thrive Chiropractic joined Pansay of Sacred Butterfly Births & Maggie to explain some comment misconceptions about chiropractic care during pregnancy and identify how it can be used in tandem with medical or midwifery prenatal care to optimize wellness.
Chiropractic care has often been misunderstood and maligned by allopathic medicine...where do those biases come from and how can we grow more understanding of options for birthing people?
Join Sharon, Pansay, and Maggie as we explore:
~misconceptions: what chiropractic care IS and ISN'T
~fundamental philosophical differences between chiropractic & allopathic medicine
~"common discomforts of pregnancy" that may be helped with chiropractic
~increasing accessibility to chiropractic services
~creating supportive care communities for birthing people
Maggie, RNC-OB 0:06
Welcome to Your BIRTH Partners, where our mission is to cultivate inclusive collaborative birth gear communities rooted in autonomy, respect and equity. I'm your host, Maggie Runyon, labor and birth nurse, educator and advocate. And I invite you to join us in conversation as we step out of our silos, break down barriers and hierarchies and step into the future of better birth care.
So welcome back to the show. This week, we are exploring chiropractic care. And so you know, putting into context in terms of all the ways that we can support ideal health during pregnancy, birth and postpartum. And chiropractic is a tool, an option for a lot of people. During this time, however, there continues to be a lot of stigma around it. And so to dig into all of this and understand a little bit more about what chiropractic is, what it isn't, the role it can have, what pregnancy birth postpartum conditions it can help us to care for, help us to address. We are having two special guests on this week, we have Dr. Sharon Dongarra, who is a chiropractor, and Pansay Tayo, who you all know from previous podcasts, who will be sharing more about her personal journey with Chiropractic and the work that she did with a chiropractor for over a decade. So we are thrilled to have them on to share a little bit more about their practice share with you all. On to the show!
So welcome. I am so excited to have you both here to just really dig into all of the benefits of chiropractic care, especially in the pregnancy, birth postpartum continuum. So if you want to just start by just sharing with our audience, a little bit about yourself and your work.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 1:55
My name is Sharon Dongarra I'm a chiropractor. I have a practice in Baltimore, Maryland, with a focus on women and children. But I see everyone, I've been a chiropractor since I graduated in 2010. But I'm pretty sure I've been a chiropractor since the moment I was born, it feels like it's something that's just a part of me. So I feel really gifted to have such a wonderful work to be able to come to each day and lift people up. So I'm not sure what else you would love to know about me, but I'm pretty much an open book. So if you have any questions you let me know.
Maggie, RNC-OB 2:31
Absolutely. Well, we will be throwing the questions at you as we go here. Perfect.
Pansay, Doula 2:35
Good afternoon. Thanks for having me back again, Maggie. I am Pansay Tayo located and I service Baltimore in the surrounding areas. I am a doula, a placenta encapsulator childbirth educator. I am the grateful owner of the Sacred Pause Red Room in Reistertown Maryland provides serene and sacred space to nourish this to calm the spirit, mind and body of our beautiful pregnant mothers, postpartum mothers and also the women and children in the community. I also have a doula mentorship program that I run and happily, you know, help the new doulas in Baltimore to you know, get a good start and they have careers in addition to that. Yes, mom, and grandma. And this topic here is very special and dear to my heart. Chiropractic care is where I first you know, seeing, you know, natural healing take place. That was my introduction into the world of seeing the body heal itself. So thank you for allowing me to be a part of this conversation.
Maggie, RNC-OB 3:37
Yes I am so grateful to have you here. And yeah, I actually I first met Pansay many, many years ago now because you were involved in chiropractic care and sharing it with so many pregnant and birthing folks and so grateful for that connection we have. Yeah, so yeah, so we want to just kind of just start to break down a little bit more about chiropractic care in this you know, series, we've been talking a lot about, what are kind of some of the some of the things that we have either like we hold kind of some biases around it. And maybe that stops us from really understanding fully the benefits of it, particularly when we're operating kind of in our in our hospital based medicine. And so I was wondering if you know, if either of you want to kind of speak to just kind of basics of like do's and don'ts, what is what is chiropractic care, kind of what does it, what does it encompass? What does it not encompass, just to kind of like lay some groundwork for us
Pansay, Doula 4:29
The doctor can take that first.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 4:32
I'm happy to um, my goal is to not to be too chatty during this chat. And so when you start talking about chiropractic, I can ramble on so I'm happy to be a good listener as well! I think you know, chiropractics interesting, because it's very much like lots of things. For example, a midwife... tell me about what can emcompass midwifery. Well, it depends on what type of midwife you are. You are home birth midwife, or you are hospital based midwife. And so even within chiropractic, there's different types of chiropractors. So I practice as what we call in the profession as subluxation based chiropractor. Sub-lux-what?! Subluxation based chiropractor. And I guess if I can just break that word down sub means less than lux means light and ation is state of being. So it's a state of having less light. And it sounds a little esoteric, but I guess what it's really referring to is kind of, as Pansay said, natural healing, it's that spark that innate intelligence within our body that seeks to heal itself. So as a subluxation-based chiropractor, that's kind of what chiropractic encompasses, for me, that is what I do, I look for the presence of subluxations in someone's body, which is essentially the malposition, of spinal vertebra. But more importantly, the fixation of those vertebra, and the resultant nerve irritation, that results as the fact that it's occurring in that area. So it's my job to look for those to find those, and then remove those for a person in a way that is safe as a practitioner. And then very immediately following as a priority feels safe for the person that's on my table. chiropractic is, I guess, different things for different people, I have lots of people who come see me when they're not feeling very well. And they know that chiropractic will give them a little relief within their system, and give it a chance to heal from whatever it's stuck in, whether that's neck pain, or back pain, or headaches. Lots of people use it to prepare for birth and delivery because they want to ensure that their pelvis is balanced. And structurally, everything moves. Well, we certainly want good movement there when we're thinking about delivering a baby. And then also, of course, as a subluxation based chiropractor recognizing that there's, you know, your nervous system is participating in that environment, we want that to be as clear as possible. throughout that process. I guess what chiropractic isn't is regular medical care. I think it functions very differently, we operate under a very different philosophy. chiropractors are really looking for the mechanisms that are right in the human body and just kind of restoring those normal mechanisms versus trying to be alter, alter them or change them. And in a way that is unnatural. So there's that could be a very, very long conversation. I think that what I would also say is it's not the type of thing that treats any particular conditions, right. So people most commonly consider a chiropractor or chiropractic for pain, but I don't treat any conditions in my office, whether it's neck pain, or back pain, or anxiety, or ADHD or any of those things. Again, my job is just to look for areas in the body where we're having trouble perceiving what's happening there, and therefore trouble managing that within our own innate intelligence. So it's just sort of a little bit of a taste, I guess, to answer that question.
Pansay, Doula 8:30
Yes, exactly. That's, that's what I learned. And that's what I know, chiropractic to be the natural healing modality, that modality to allow the body to heal itself and removing those subluxations of blockages, that's preventing and causing, you know, challenges, you know, in the body? And again, yes, what it's not, it's not medicine. It is it is very, you know, hands on, and just freeing the body of those challenges to to allow the body to do what it naturally supposed to do to work towards healing.
Maggie, RNC-OB 9:08
Yes, yeah, I really like that. Just that thinking of kind of the difference in terms of how it's aligning, aligning the body kind of within itself, and not necessarily like usually you're not as a treat anything. Do you think? Some of that? Do we think it's because of that, that there's kind of this rub between like chiropractic medicine and like allopathic medicine system, like is it that, you know, hospital, but we tend to be very kind of focused on like fixing an issue. And that, is that why there's not a connection with it? Or where do you think some of that kind of like bias or misunderstanding is coming from?
Pansay, Doula 9:44
I feel that, you know, with with Western medicine, you know, the focus a lot of times is not believing that the body is capable of healing itself, and that we need to intervene. We need these interventions in order for healing to happen, like the body is not capable of healing, you know, healing itself, talking to tons of professionals, you know, over the 12 years without I was, you know, working for a chiropractor. You know, it's true that they you know, they believe the chiropractors are "quacks" that is the exact terms that I heard over and over again, if they're quacks that they are, you know, that they're fake, and that they, you know, believe, you know, try to trick people into, you know, believing that they can do this type of healing, and that it's that it's not real, and that it's so far, you know, from the truth. So just like I see, with pregnancy, you know, in birth, with Western medicine, they don't believe that the body is capable and was created to do this untouched, on its own. Right. So it's the same thinking with chiropractic like, No, I have to put my hands in it, you need my machines, you need my medicine, you know, you need my test in order for your healing to take place.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 11:06
It's the philosophy that so different, and so sometimes it just causes this friction, you know, and both chiropractors and medical doctors are both guilty on our parts for perpetuating that. I think, in a lot of ways. You know, you mentioned interventions, and we know that some interventions lead to more interventions lead to more interventions. And so, you know, that's frustrating as a chiropractor, when you hear about, you know, for example, inducements that may not necessarily You know, I'm not an OB GYN, I have to be careful to stay in my lane. But if you have a first time mom, and she's 40 weeks, and she's you know, now she's 41 weeks, do we need to intervene? Is it, isn't it normal for a first time mom to kind of go over? And do we do we rush the situation, and then now we have to do something else. And so I think that I think you just really hit the nail on the head that that just the philosophical fundamental difference is, it's hard for us to reconcile with each other. I'll also say, I think there's just a little bit, you know, I don't know if you're, you know, but in the in the early 80s, like the 1980s, not the 1880s. But in the early 80s, there were a group of chiropractors who actually filed an antitrust lawsuit against the American Medical Association for trying to discredit the chiropractic profession for telling their patients that if they saw a chiropractor, they would not care for them, telling telling, you know, doctors not to associate with chiropractors really literally trying to ruin the profession and get rid of that level of competition. And so I also think there's just some residual sour grapes there that people don't even know that where they're necessarily getting their biases from. And, boy, isn't that true in all kinds of ways, and human nature's given these biases, and we accept them on, you know, without further investigation. And I think also, you know, we talk a lot about science, and I think there's in the medical field, I think that they feel that chiropractic is very sorely lacking in science, which if you ask a chiropractor, we would disagree. But you know, the gold standard and science and research is like this randomized controlled study, and how do you do that with a chiropractor? How many are a chiropractic adjustment? How do you say, you're going to line up, you know, 100, people who all have neck pain, just as an example, and give them an adjustment, but it's going to be at a different level, it's going to have been there for a different amount of time. And it's, you know, who is at the same chiropractor giving the same adjustment at that, you know, so it's very difficult to to research chiropractic in that way. It's not funded by major drug companies. It's not funded by major medical schools, right. It's, it's funded by people like me, who say, you know, I'm going to give several $100 a year to, you know, researchers who look at Chiropractic and I mean, there's tons of case studies and anecdotal evidence. And if you've ever been adjusted, and you get up off the table, there's a feeling that you have, and to a certain extent, the proof is in the pudding. You know, it's hard to give words to that feeling. So I can understand the confusion, I can understand kind of the backbiting that happens, but the people who suffer are the people in the middle and so it's, it's my job as a chiropractor, and as a human actually, to kind of, you know, sometimes set my ego aside and seek to understand first and then share where I'm coming from as it relates to that. And I think that that if we all did that if we all held space for each other where we're coming from and and Educated the consumer, which is what we are, you know, we're not patients. And we don't call people patients here we call them practice members because you're you are a healthcare consumer. So it's my job to teach you what chiropractic does. And then it's your job to, to figure out how to best use that in your life in a way that you feel gives you an optimal amount of health. And you know, some people get on that train like Pansay and never get off. Like me, you know, it certainly saved my life when I was in the pits of despair. And some people they get on, and then they get off, and then they get on again, and then they get off again. And really, it's not my job or anyone else's job to force that value. It's my job to tell the chiropractic story and be here for people and care for them in a compassionate way.
Maggie, RNC-OB 15:51
Uggh that's so good, like I'm just processing everything. I think there were so many like deep truths in that that just like you said, they extend beyond the chiropractic relation, I think that is our That should be our relation, like you said, as, as human beings, who are attempting to understand and support each other. And, you know, obviously, all of us a huge tenant of, you know, everything that we talked about here with Your BIRTH Partners is that idea that right? You know, we all have these different skills, talents, educational backgrounds, things we are able to bring to the world, you know, and in my humble opinion, if we were to actually just each be able to offer those up to people, and support them with what they actually need, at that moment, we would be in such a different place, instead of so many of us feel this, like push and pull to try to be something that we're not or, like, you know, cover too many bases, because we're trying to, we think we're helping someone. And we step way outside of that, or we start putting our own like you said, all those unexamined biases they stop us from seeing the person is like an individual has their own needs have been said, Every person, like you said, Every health care consumer, especially during such a time as pregnancy, and birth and postpartum if they were able to see like, here are all of the options here. Here are the million things that have helped people through having their babies for millennia. What of these do you think might be helpful for you? And certainly for some people, that's going to look like really very minimal, you know, interventions, or using chiropractic or massage. And for some people absolutely, like, they desire medication, to help them through it, they want to take herbs, some people, you know, like, I think if we were just able to just present all those options as a buffet style, instead of making it seem as if like, you're on this super strict menu over here. And I guess maybe that leads into my next question like, with this understanding of kind of these ways that we have maybe created kind of some walls up, and it can be hard for people to kind of like relate back and forth. How do you all think we can kind of move for as like moving forward? How could we all as birth professionals in our listeners or across, you know, all sorts of different professions within that? How can we help support clients to know more about chiropractic care and understanding that might be something that they want to have as part of their experience with whatever else might be in or not in that?
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 18:29
Pansay, I think you're probably best to answer that one. That's right. That's your wheelhouse, lady!
Pansay, Doula 18:35
yes. There, you know, throughout my 12 years, you know, working in chiropractic, yes, that was my, that was my job, how do I go into these communities, you know, with people who knew nothing of chiropractic, and I made it to a point to go into my own personal that was one of my request for the doctor that I worked for, Can Can I go with the people who look like me, because we never wait, like, like, really knew anything of this, they never heard it when I was coming up. And I can recall being in the office and seeing elderly people, you know, come in the office and come in one way, but you know, walk out without their cane, and feel better. So I wanted to take it to my grandmother's, and my, you know, my Auntie's and my father, you know, and tell them about it, but yes, and the education is they are me, my sister, all these years now. I mean, that's a part of her normal, you know, health regime is chiropractic. So education is is key, we, I think it should be presented in a way that you're meeting the person where they are, right. So you know, as the as the marketing, you know, manager, sometimes I will go out with the doctor. Sometimes the doctor will just send me out. So, you know, of course, if it was just me, the community was able to be more comfortable with giving me the truth. of how it was presented. So I know I did very well at meeting them where they are. So they were just able to drop the barriers and just listen, like I'm not trying to force you, I'm just giving you a, you know, what is another option for you to include not, you know, not to stop going to your doctor, but that's your choice. But another option to include in your healthcare and they were very receptive, you know, to that my family was very receptive to that. So we have to be very mindful of how it's presented. Because if you come pushy, delivery, delivery is very important, you know, so, um, even with, you know, my clients, majority of my clients, you know, have chiropractic treatment throughout. And, you know, I share my own personal experiences, you know, in there with, you know, being pregnant with my daughter, even, you know, to take it back a little further conception, you know, how, you know, I was helped with, you know, breaking up scar tissue chiropractic help break up the scar tissue for me, even to, you know, conceive if I had several miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies, and, you know, Western medicine told me, no, it's over for you, you can't have any more children, you know, but then I was introduced into chiropractic, you know, care, and it's like, Ah, no, here's another option for you. Right? And it works. She's, she's 12 years old, and she's here. So I share my story of, you know, pregnancy and postpartum with chiropractic care, and it's still working wonders with all of my clients, they absolutely love it, it helps us, you know, to have easier, you know, birds, more comfortable pregnancies, you know, to prevent that pregnancy. sciatica, you know, just because we're pregnant, we don't have to suffer with these things that we, you know, we think they're just supposed to come with pregnancy. No, there are natural things and healthy things that we can do. So, you know, meeting them, where they are not being overbearing, you know, not saying to stop doing XYZ, but here's another option for you research it, and I do provide them all with, you know, research, research it, and I am, yes, a case study, you know, that I've experienced it. So, yeah, that's that's how I approached approach it. It worked, then, and it still works, you know, and it still works now.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 22:17
Hmm. I agree. I think I think one of the beautiful things about chiropractic is it just makes sense. You know, I feel I feel as though we're more empowered to understand about how our car works than we are about our own body. And I think that's one place where chiropractors shine is that, you know, there's no choice but to explain things. Because if you think you're just going to go in and get an oil change, and then you're good for the next, you know, 3000 miles, is that what it is? You guys have just told on myself? I'm not very good with my car.
Maggie, RNC-OB 22:48
Haha! so many depends on what kind of oil you're using, you know, it's different.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 22:55
Yes, we don't really have much of a choice, but to tell the story of how it works. And, and it does, it just makes sense. And I think it paints a saying, if you if you share the story, and you share what it does, and we share our own experiences with Chiropractic and how it's changed our lives. I think that helps normalize it. And then I think as a practitioner, it's important not to alienate other practitioners. Yes, we have a way of just being so excited and so passionate about chiropractic that we want it to outshine all the things, you know, and and the truth is that while I love chiropractic, and I think most people could benefit from it. There's not one thing that's gonna fix everything for everyone. It's just not gonna, that's just not gonna happen. Right? Right. So I think we just have to have, again, just respect for each other and where we're at. And that that delivery is so important, no matter who you're talking to about.
Maggie, RNC-OB 24:00
Yeah. Can you speak a little bit I know, Pansay has started to touch on some of them. Kind of those, quote unquote, like common discomforts of pregnancy, that, like you said, you know, we tend to see kind of in the in the industry, like, Oh, sure, yeah, it's a lot of people have this feeling a lot of people have that feeling. Can you speak to which ones of those like, Are there again, each with recognition that each person who comes into it is going to have their own, you know, health history and myriad of things you're looking at? Are there like just a number of kind of like, common things that you typically see during pregnancy that you're able to assist people with?
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 24:31
Of course, so, you know, one of the things with pregnancy is, you know, it's sort of the trifecta of life stress. You know, in chiropractic, we talk about different type of stressors that affect the function of your body and there's, you know, obviously physical stressors if you're in a car accident or chemical stressors, you know, if you're exposed to too many toxins and it's causing inflammation in your body, it's making things sticky or, or emotional stressors, you know, so angry or sad, you know, These different types of stress and pregnancy is all three of them, right? Like, it's this beautiful, wonderful, exciting thing, but it's also like, oh my god who issued me a baby, you know, it's it's your posture changes your your hormones change so that you're more loosey goosey, right, so, so just, you know, just physically speaking, when we look at how the body has to change to adapt to being upright against gravity, you know, there's, there's, we often say, you know, kind of that belly kind of sway forward in the back kind of lean back and the head kind of come forward. And so as a result is gravity's pulling down on our body, the mass of our body is pushing on our curves that normally support us in different ways. So, of course, low back pain is a really common thing that people have round ligament pain is a really common thing that people have, you know, so just different types of things like that different areas, you know, radiating pain down the leg, often are really only highlighting, dysfunction that's been there all along, it's not like it came up all of a sudden, when you're pregnant, it's just that pregnancy added so much for your body to accommodate to that now it can't keep all the balls in the air, you know. So now we begin to kind of feel the effects of imbalances in the way that our pelvic joints are working, if one is stuck, what's going to happen is that's going to create a lot of wear and tear on the other one that's making up all of the movement. So if I get it stuck joint in my pelvis, like my sacral, iliac joint, I'm not going to stop walking, or sitting or bending down to pick things up. It's just that now that motion has to be made up in the side that is working. And then unfortunately, what we do is because that the sign that is working is hurting, it's barking, it's telling us, hey, this isn't working in this partnership, you know, then we try to stretch it and poke at it and prod it and ice and heat it. And it's not even the problem, right? So I find oftentimes, sometimes just educating people so that they have an understanding of what's happening in our body, a lot of times muscles will feel very tight. And so people will want to be stretching them. And they like to use the example of a rubber band, you know, if you have one really quickly here. Yeah, if you if you take a rubber band, rubber bands, not the best analogy with a muscle crank, because because it doesn't squeeze back. But you know, this is this is muscle tension. Okay, and that's a good healthy tension. This is a muscle that's really being stretched to the max. And does it feel tight? Of course, yes, it You better believe it feels tight. So the sensation is accurate. But how you would necessarily treat that one to be accurate. So, you know, you communicating with someone and saying, you know, it feels tight because of this? And then they say, oh, okay, and then they're just empowered to stop stretching it right. So that maybe I went off track a little bit, but I think that's what you were going for in terms of the types of things specifically as relating to pregnancy.
Maggie, RNC-OB 28:07
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there are pieces that you start to touch on, too, is that idea of like, just speaking to that client comfort piece of it, because I think because of, you know, misinformation, and you know, things we've heard, I think the idea of like, chiropractic, spinal manipulation, messing, like, that sounds very, like, buzzword scary, right? It sounds a little bit scary, my spine like that, like, I need that for a bunch of stuff. So I'm just gonna have to kind of keep things you know, like, there's just that kind of like knee jerk, like, Oh, I don't know about that. So can you speak a little bit about like, how you kind of protect both like, physical and mental, more mental, I guess maybe like the mental safety around that piece of it and how you bring like comfort to your clients during an interaction? Absolutely.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 28:50
Well, first of all, Isn't it fun, how we just know how important it is? Right? Like, we don't really need anybody to tell us how important our spine is. Or like, Oh, my gosh, my neck. Nope. Be careful with my neck bone, careful. My spine like, inherently, we know this is the core of our being, you know? And how do I, you know, I asked every person when they come in, I say, you know, have you ever been to a chiropractor before? Yes or no. You know, obviously, you know, I want to "pop your back." Right. And this is some chiropractors get testy. When we say things like pop your back. No, it's an adjustment, but I don't get testy about that. It's, it's a layman's term, I'm going to choose my battles. You know, does that bring you stress at all? You know, and I opened it up because let's face it, chiropractors are confronted with a negative brand equity from the get go. So I think just kind of grabbing the bull by the horns and just asking the person and, you know, nine times out of 10 people will say no, not at all. I'm so excited because they're here, right? It takes a really brave person who's really afraid to actually show up. You know, and, and still be afraid, but I say I let them know Well, you know, the if that feels right after the end of our meeting. And we try that just so you know, there's many ways to adjust someone, if you don't like it, you never have to do that. Again, there's other ways that we can get that done. Okay? So the first thing is just ask people, where are you at with that? Like, what does that feel like the idea of that, you know, for some people, it's, it's scary, because they don't want to get hurt. For some people, they're not afraid, they want to trust me right at the onset. But the noise is scary. You know, for some people, they've heard a scary story from their great Aunt Sally's closest friend's college roommate, you know, and so it's just, I feel like giving people the opportunity to express their concern is an important step. And then also just letting them know, we don't have to actually pop or crack, you know, to make an adjustment, you know, an adjustment can be super subtle, really subtle, in fact, subtle enough to do an adjustment on infants, right. So I think the first thing is just to kind of confront the issue that you can bet that it's almost everyone's mind, and give them the control over what's going to be happening. And I think that's unique at a at a doctor's appointment, right, is that you're going to have any kind of control over what the next steps are and how you're treated. And that's not a criticism. That's just because when you go to the medical doctor, and you have an emergency, they say, these are the tools that I have, and this is what's available, you know, for you to use, this is what we're going to do, it just kind of is the nature of how things go. But in chiropractic, we're able to have a little bit more flexibility of, of comfort, I think, yeah,
Maggie, RNC-OB 29:16
I think that piece of it is like it's crucial. And we've talked so many times on, you know, various episodes or podcasts about like, what a world it would be, if that was the standard for everything was just a complete change in the way that we have kind of consent discussions about each thing like, hey, the, again, these are the options, we could do this or that, Oh, you don't feel comfortable, this, I have a different thing we could try. Let's do that, instead of feeling like there's a time constraint, the, we've got to get this fixed right now. And everything has to move so quickly like that, that piece obviously just helps that being able to slow down and have the conversation is so crucial.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 32:06
That's more of a reflection of the medical system, and the people in it. You know, I think the doctors and, you know, they, I think that they really want their patients to feel comfortable, and they really want to serve them in the best way possible. But the system is set up such that they have to see more people and less time, you know, just just to be able to pay their bills and make a decent amount of money. Right. So and part of that is the structure of the system. Not not the people involved in their their intentions towards their patients, right? Oh,
Maggie, RNC-OB 32:37
yeah, absolutely. I think I mean, huge, huge system failure. And that I think most people who go into I certainly didn't know, as a nurse, obviously, until you're in it and doing it you realize like, Oh, wait, is this? Is this how we do this? Oh, that's not really what I thought we would be. Mm hmm. And then you're you try your best to navigate, you know, the system with the tools you have in the way that, you know, you can change something once you're in it. But yeah, I think that is, that is a huge piece of I know, we had talked previously, too. And I think maybe it's worth just sharing on this that like there is the that piece of chiropractic care in terms of like accessibility, because it is outside of the kind of hospital based systems and in terms of insurance and the financial component of like, paying for a, you know, a health service. I didn't know, either you want to kind of touch on on that piece of it either.
Pansay, Doula 33:25
Yes, this this is an area that set me so much when I was you know, directly in the field, you know, I mentioned that I would, you know, intentionally going to the communities where I was from, to, you know, health fairs that was at school, and the people were excited, you know, they were excited, you know, to get their myovision scan, and for me to show them the areas that it showed that you know, needed help and subluxations and the information that I shared, they wanted to come and least try and they will come and then what happens, insurance wouldn't pay for it. Right? So it's kind of like your force, you know, without the finances being there to be able to pay cash money for every you know, visit, you know, you're catching the bus from an inner city coming out to you know, the chiropractor. They could, you know, couldn't afford it. And it's like, you're forced to go back to your medication. You know, gratefully over the years, though, I started to see more and more insurances open up not so much of the, you know, state insurance, you know, insurance through social services. But Blue Cross and Blue Shield America, remember when I first started, it was just like a no, right? No, you know, then they will open up and say, you know, well, okay, you know, we'll give you this amount of visits, you know, with authorization. So we just had to start spending a lot of time on the phone with insurance companies and paperwork and tons of paperwork. You know, to get these visits covered to get the chiropractor paid. So more work, a lot of work if they would, you know, force us to do to get payment for these things, thinking about my clients right now, for the most part, I would say that I see that it's still improving, you know, insurance wise and how they are covering, you know, more, but there still is a cut off, because majority of my clients at some point have to stop, you know, I just had a client the other day, she was like, I just can't afford it anymore. You know, so, so yes, it's it's not an easy, you know, task. Yeah.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 35:36
Yeah. I feel like that's something where we're just still for kind of failing miserably. You know, as a as a, as a business owner, I decided not to take insurance for just that reason, like people would have different levels of coverage, their co pays would vary, it would be an exorbitant amount of work. And so you know, for me, I can just set a low cash fee and I can say, this is my fee. But it's the same with you know, home birth midwifery, doulas, birth education, chiropractic care, massage, acupuncture, it becomes this very privileged thing, that people who do not have the resources are not able to avail themselves to. And so it's disturbing and unfair. And I'm not really sure how to solve that problem, I'm certainly open to suggestions, and I'd love to hear them because it weighs on my heart to pants I because it's like, the people who need it the most are the people who are, you know, restricted from all of those other goods services, you know, this is definitely a tragic problem as it relates to delivering the care, you know, and we can't do it for free, because, man, we have to run a business, you know, we have, but it's, it's a problem that needs to be answered in some way.
Pansay, Doula 36:58
I think as business owners, you know, back back, then we would try to have at least a monthly promotion, that would help, you know, help some people, you know, giving back to the community in some type of way. And we made sure that was consistent, you know, every month, okay, we have, you know, this amount and to give away or to discount, you know, and I'm grateful to have worked with a doctor that was open, you know, to that, and just as, you know, in my business, I can't do it for free by any opportunity that I can, you know, discount or have scholarships, or, you know, so grateful to be receiving scholarship money, you know, to be able to offer, it's a it's a beautiful thing. So I think if we stay consistent with that, at least try to help as many people, you know, as we can. Until things change.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 37:49
Yeah, I agree. It's important.
Maggie, RNC-OB 37:54
It's so; I mean, it's so important, it's so frustrating that, you know, we just continue to have such a uneven distribution of resources as of dance to, like you said, all of these pieces of health in general, and then you know, especially in this time that we lift up pregnancy, birth and postpartum as this like, you know, like we hold up on this pedestal like social media wise, it's you know, like of course, everyone is honoring birth and pregnancy and then the way that it plays out in like society policies that we have in terms of access to like you said, all of these various health resources in terms of time off once you actually have your baby You know, all of these things that we then don't actually provide on the like the other side of it it's just kind of this like theoretical concept people are happy to put into but then we don't have like the actual steps in place to let everyone get there.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 38:49
It's important unless you're poor Yeah.
Maggie, RNC-OB 38:54
Well, I absolutely really value the ways that like you do this work though, Sharon and Pansay as well that like that, there are all these ways that we can still like not to be like a downer like there are ways we can do this. There are all of those things they do add up you know, like making offering sliding scales, offering options offering discounts offering for you know, certain different you know, different rates of compensation, accepting bartering for like there are so many ways that we can still create a more even exchange energy exchange around what we're, you know, what we're doing, you know, as we go to kind of wrap this up, I think one of questions I've heard from people sometimes like I've certainly I know, friends and loved ones who've gotten like carpet adjustments, like during labor at birth, postpartum is there are there times like that it's like, you know, ideal, too early, too late to kind of access chiropractic care within the pregnancy, birth postpartum, kind of like continuum?
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 39:50
For me as a practitioner, if we don't have a relationship before you're in labor, that's really hard, because I can't really give you a you know...part of what Makes chiropractic so safe is just a very thorough and health history that we do. So you can't necessarily approach a pregnant woman who's in the midst of delivery and perhaps stalled, and, you know, really enquire about the safety of that. So, you know, so for me, that's, that's a little bit too late if I don't have a relationship, otherwise, my goodness, it's never really too late, you know, just you just, we can't go back. You know, if I can you look at anything in your life, if you can have regrets, you can never go back and start something, you know, way earlier, you know, golly, I wish in my 20s, I ate a lot healthier than I did at that time, you know, but I can't go back to that. So you can only really move forward with with where you are today. You know, as it relates to too early, I know, there's no time that's too early, you just...another great thing about chiropractic is, if you don't have any subluxations, you don't get adjusted that day, right. So there's, if the need is present in the body, it's not too early, it's right on time.
Pansay, Doula 41:01
And thinking about timeframe, you know, even some of my fertility clients, you know, I feel like, you know, let's not wait until you're pregnant, you know, by the wind, you know, that they want to one of my recommendations to them is to Yes, go now we want the body to, you know, hopefully be functioning at its optimum level, you know, for conception, so, no, I don't feel like it's ever, you know, too late, you know, throughout pregnancy was beautiful and wonderful for me postpartum I was, you know, right, they are bringing the baby and, you know, baby girl adjusted, that helped with, you know, ear infections, and, you know, us that she had, you know, five days old, you know, and even my son with asthma, you know, chiropractic was so helpful, you know, where he was, wants to consider severe asthmatic, you know, definitely seen that decrease over the years with, with, you know, consistent adjustments. And, and, you know, to be transparent. chiropractic also educates you on healthier options overall. Right? So, right, this isn't a fix all. You know, the adjustment? How are you eating? What are you eating? What is your lifestyle, you know, your exercise lifestyle, like, and that's what I loved about, you know, where I worked, it was overall. So with myself, it was like, Yes, you have your chiropractic adjustment, but let's look at nutrition. Let's look at, you know, what you're eating. And I think it's helpful for, you know, all of us to make life changes. Right. You know, definitely helpful that, you know, these are also other things that could help with your overall, you know, health.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 42:43
You know, you're you're saying that, and I'm thinking it brings me back to those stressors that we were talking about initially, but it's also having me think about, you know, there's, there's more gifts than we have to give than just the adjustment, right? So that like, information is free. Yes, you really touched me there, Pansay.
Pansay, Doula 43:02
Yeah. Thank you, I thank you for you know, I'd say it's been many days in a chiropractic office that that I shed tears, just looking at the beauty of the work, really, you know, again, it's nice to see of, you know, of a woman to come in and running from and, you know, an induction, a planned induction, like, this is not what I wanted, and to spend the day at the chiropractic office with us, you know, getting manipulations and one of the ball trying to get labor started because she didn't want the medication and possible cesarean and so you know, send her on her way and get the phone call that the baby is here, you know, and they both are safe. You know, many, many, many, I can go one on experiences like that, where it just warms my heart and confirmed for me that yes, the body is truly capable of healing itself. And I feel that the doctors that are in this place, providing the services, you know, for our women, for our children, for the community, you have blessed hands, you know, I will tell the doctor all the time, like this is this truly, you know, a blessing to the community, that we do have the option even with the challenges that we can go somewhere that's not putting medication in our bodies, and we're leaving out feeling better, how situation, you know, medical situation, you know, is better. So I thank you, I thank you. I really do folk for for all that you do for the women, the children in our community.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 44:37
Thank you. And I can tell you, it's a blessing for us to you know, my grandfather used to say if you do good, you get good and it's certainly just, I'm lucky every day that I get to come to work and take care of people.
Maggie, RNC-OB 44:51
Thank you both so much for coming on here and sharing so much about your work and just your passion for giving people options and being able to really promote health and so many different levels as we're looking to move through pregnancy and birth. And, you know, I appreciate it as like all of us professionals who are listening to this and trying to think about like, right, is this an option is is something I could be talking to my clients about? Is this something that you can find? Like, do you know chiropractors in your area? Are they someone you could network with, and get a relationship with so that you understand more about what, what their practice looks like, you know, like you spoke to earlier, Sharon, not every chiropractor, obviously, just like not every doctor and I remember, it's good to practice the same way or have the same philosophies, you know, different ones are going to align best, you know, with different clients. But when we're thinking about, you know, all these different, different chiropractor, different styles, different ways that people are working, are there certain qualifications or educational backgrounds that would be most helpful when we are approaching someone is in you know, is pregnant and looking for chiropractic care?
Pansay, Doula 45:56
Yes, yes, it's very important that our birthing people know that the chiropractic that they seek should be Webster technique certified, so that, you know, these chiropractors should specialize in pregnancy and, you know, pediatric. And, you know, this safety is very important. You know, so that's what we want to focus on the safety of the, you know, birthing person. So specifically looking for that specialization.
Maggie, RNC-OB 46:28
Yeah, that's interesting. I think there's always that idea like, you know, anything natural is safe. And you we know that obviously, there's a whole, like, range of expertise, obviously, that you still need to have to protect, you know, facilitate health in the body, even if you're not adding in, you know, additional medications, everything. So, I appreciate you clarifying. I'm always looking for more community, I'd love to see a more kind of incorporation of this into like, the overall options that people have and having it feel like it's more of a standard instead of off the beaten around the sundae. Yeah. Well, thank you both, so much. Appreciate you.
Dr. Sharon Dongarra, DC 47:04
Thank you. Thank you both for being such great advocates for chiropractic care and birthing people.
Maggie, RNC-OB 47:09
Yeah. Love it.
Well, I hope you really enjoyed that conversation with Pansay and Sharon, digging into chiropractic care and how it can fit into pregnancy, birth and postpartum. We would love to hear from you any questions you have or things you'd like for us to explore more about chiropractic care and how it can be useful during this time. We'd love to invite you to join us in our Facebook group, your birth partners community, and that's where we have a chance to really dig into some of these topics and questions and share a little bit more about our experiences with them. You can also follow us Your BIRTH Partners across social media. And we look forward to sharing more information about chiropractics in the show notes for this week's episode. Thanks for being here. Till next time