The Rebozo & Beyond: Cultural Appropriation in Birth 1 #036

In this episode, Montse Olmos, Mujer dela Tierra, and Mayte Acolt, The Womb Doula, share with us about their roles as birthworkers and what led them to create a petition requesting removal of Rebozo training from doula workshops, which has garnered international attention.
During this conversation we discuss:
~the physical harm from rebozo use that prompted the urgency of the petition
~how many birthworker trainings provide inadequate training for holistic remedies
~how the medical-industrial complex fuels cultural appropriation
~the damage from viewing birthcare provision through an individual vs communal lens
~the exhaustion from needing to validate ancestral wisdom for US birthworkers ad nauseum

If you enjoyed this interview you'll want to tune into the rest of it coming out 5/10 digging deeper into appropriation, accountability, & allyship!

Transcript

Maggie, RNC-OB  0:06  
Welcome to Your BIRTH Partners, where our mission is to cultivate inclusive collaborative birth gear communities rooted in autonomy, respect and equity. I'm your host, Maggie Runyon, labor and birth nurse, educator and advocate. And I invite you to join us in conversation, as we step out of our silos, break down barriers and hierarchies, and step into the future of better birth care. 

Welcome back. This week, we are diving into really deep conversation around cultural appropriation, and how that shows up in the birth community, and how we can recognize those pieces of it in ourselves as birth workers, how we can examine our own practices, and how we can learn a little bit more about the impact of our practices on those in our care. So, you know, as we've been walking through this whole series, and talking a lot about biases, I just want to make a point that, you know, we, we all have biases, we are all human. And that our hope with all of these conversations is that by engaging in this work, by listening in these conversations, and then taking them in continuing them with your loved ones, your friends, your colleagues, that we're able to just examine and dig deeper and find some of our biases, and then grow and change because that's all that any of us can want for each other from this life. And so, I have had the pleasure recently of learning with Montse Olmos and Mayte Acolt, as they have really drawn tremendous attention within the birth community to examine the use of the rebozo in particular, but also the greater story that that tells us about the role of cultural appropriation and white supremacy thinking within the birth worker community. And so I think that's a really important conversation to reflect on. And I'm eager to share this episode with you and hear feedback. So on to the show. 

Oh, welcome so much the podcast, I am so excited to have you both on here with us to really dig into what we are doing as birth workers to fight against cultural appropriation and to cultivate birthcare practices that are meaningful to us and to our clients. And also help to keep everyone safe and not further perpetuate harm. And so I am just thrilled to have you on here. If Montse & Mayte, if you want to just introduce yourselves to us and our audience and just explain kind of what brought you to birth work and we'll go from there.

Montse Olmos  2:53  
So my name is Montse Olmos, I was born and raised in Mexico, and migrated to the United States at the age of 15. While living in the United States as a migrant, I became pregnant with my first baby. And that's what brought me to birth work. My own journey with pregnancy and birth and postpartum and I come from the Tutunaku people. It's an indigenous group of Mexico, but I'm also mixed with white blood. And we have some black relatives in our family. Besides birth work, I am also an educator. I do online virtual classes, knowledge shares for birth workers around the history of that also, spirituality and birth, and even other topics like corn and just the ancestral story of of corn. I live in an indigenous community where my partner is from, and we are building our home and rolling our crops and just reconnecting to our lives and the heat from before we had to migrate. That's who I am.

Maggie, RNC-OB  4:15  
Thank you. 

Mayte Alcot  4:16  
Hi, everyone. My name is Mayte and I call myself The Womb Doula. I am a traditional sobadora since I was seven. I began learning self practice at age five and I migrated here when I was seven, but went back and forth between the States and Mexico for many years until my abuelita passed away. I am part of a wellness collective called our wellness community where we wanted to provide accessibility to services that are considered a luxury such as massage, acupuncture, counseling, yoga, chiropractic and what I do because if you look at what I do and you try to get the appropriated version of it, which is mayan abdominal massage, which is really problematic. It is around 200 to $600 for a session, and there are others who also do the work that I do, maybe not in the traditional matter, but charge up to 1000s of dollars to provide this care. So my mission and our mission really is to provide accessibility and accessibility looks different for everyone, which also includes having appointments available after work hours, it means coming in on the weekend, it means showing up in places in ways that other professionals do not...unfortunately, that doesn't mean accessible. I am a mom of four, I'm married to my husband, we have been together for almost a decade, which is crazy. And I've been a birth doula since 2014. And 2015 is when I figured out how to be basically after the pregnancy of my first child, I figured out how to do what I love, which is above us and incorporated in a way that others could receive the care and begin to kind of get connected with it and learn about it, which was first doulaing. So I've been doing that for a while now, I don't know how many years. And I'm also Tanaka, I was born there and raised in that way, for many until age seven, and then I came to the states. So I still hold many traditions such as our mourning, which I'm currently in until day 40, which will be next Monday. And there's like a lot of complexities in that. And so that is one of the reasons why Montse and I are starting our podcast called Comadres_Indigenas. And you can ask that we would love for everyone who listened to, because we kind of talk about those complexities that we are often faced with. That's it. That's all I do.

Maggie, RNC-OB  6:48  
[laughter] That is a lot that you do. Thank you so much for sharing all of that I love that y'all are starting a podcast. And I can't wait to be able to tune in and appreciate that I think there is so much that I've already been able to learn from you from social media and your workshop. And I'm really grateful for how you're sharing that with us. I wanted to maybe start by kind of diving into how I first get to know you through the wonder of social media is when you all started the petition around the rebozo use by, you know us birth workers and doula organizations a few months ago. And I would love for you to kind of explain a little bit about maybe that process and what what made it feel like, while, you all have been doing this work for, you know, many years. What made it feel like now was the time to really kind of step forth and start calling out some of those practices?

Mayte Alcot  7:39  
Well, I think definitely since I started offering this knowledge share along with my day, we have received a lot of like comments and testimonials stories from people basically sharing their experience with that, and also sharing how they learned about it in their doula training or sharing about how they've been hurt by it. That was I think that was definitely a big factor. But even as, as birth workers just in general, like, I'm sure Mayte that has had the same experience because we've talked about it like just being a doula and like talking to other doulas and going to births. We've seen how the rebozo is used. And we've seen how it's applied on people's bodies. And we've seen how it's taught, right. And so, I mean, for me personally, since I became a doula, I became aware of what was happening like, when I became a doula, I had no idea that there also was this huge market, that there was a big industry around it. Specifically for birthing techniques like for midwives, and doulas. I knew the role as an everyday life, sacred textile garment that is used for so many other things. I didn't know it as this "tool", how it's promoted now in the work world that specifically for me, wasn't centered carrying your babies postpartum, like for postpartum care, but it wasn't so much centered around birth. And then as a migrant in the states came aware of like how like big obsession around it around like it means to have one and at every training, and I saw that a lot of the times what people were calling out of also wasn't actually one but it was, you know, whatever type of fabric they found, or something called a pashmina. I don't know where that comes, I would have heard about that to being called a rebozo. Or just synthetic fabrics that are sold as rebozos that are like machine made or are from China. I know that you can find them online on Amazon and eBay on Etsy. And folks were using that as well. So that's when my awareness began expanding. But I also want to say that one of the one of the things that really pushed us to release it is the experience that Mayte had with someone that was hurt by it. Someone that was hurt by her doula using on her. I don't know if Mayte wants to share about that. That's definitely one of the things that triggered the urgency to release it to do something to say something and to initiate a dialogue. 

Yeah it's crazy, because I think you and I wanted to talk about it. And like, even before we decided to write the petition, years before we both thought about addressing these organizations, but we were kind of like, Hey, you know, let's wait on that. Like, we didn't know each other then. But in our heads, we were like, "I don't know if people ready for this conversation. Are they ready for what is about to happen?" And it wasn't until I went to this birth, and this isn't even the first experience. This is one of the most recent experiences where a I was called into a birth be due to something happening with decision a baby. And I was not the birth doula. I was only there to assist with that part. And upon arriving, I went to the restroom, I set my things down. And when I came out of the restroom, they were like an urgency and state of emergency. They were like, "okay, we have to go. We're transferring right now." And at that moment, I didn't really know what was happening. Because it was, again, state of emergency. So what happened was that the mom had had a subchorionic bleed in early pregnancy. I had one of those with my firstborn. So I know a little more about it, then, you know, usually I already knew a little more about it than usual or than others. Basically what occurs is that the placenta, where the baby implants, it kind of detaches and comes back. So some blood is then released as its healing. With that later on in pregnancy come a few other dangerous such as placenta abruption. And it really shouldn't be messed with like in anything that you read about it. It's just says do not touch with the belly, do not mess with it. And that jiggle, wiggle, don't do anything with it. So I think another problem with doula organizations training all these people is that they're not really teaching them a lot about pregnancy. And about all these things, I can tell you, I never heard of it prior to having one in pregnancy, right? And many people haven't. And so the doula thought it was a good idea as a last ditch effort to sift the belly of the mom as a way of relaxing or comforting or maybe moving baby's position. I don't really know what the doula was thinking. But as she began to sift the baby, the mom said that she had pain, and then bleeding, because her placenta had detached. She also had an anterior placenta so it made the placenta even more susceptible to any kind of movement in the belly. So after I went to that birth, I'm like, very next morning, I messaged Montse, I messaged our friend Emily, I was like, hey, like, what can we do to address these organizations right now. And so once they have been the awesome writer that she is, she's like, "I'm gonna, we're gonna do it. And we're gonna write this petition." And I was like, Great. Thank you.

Maggie, RNC-OB  13:38  
Mmm. That's so heavy. I mean, that I think there that just speaks that the bigger issue of us not having that, that awareness around what what we're doing and how each of these things are, you know, are connected, like you said, Montse, I totally heard about the rebozo as a, like you said, a kind of a "tool," you know, that it's this, this thing that can be used during labor, pregnancy, you know, birth for increased comfort, in that, when we're viewing it as this like, separate one little entity, and not having that framework for really how it is impacting the body and how all of these things are related, like we will actually cause harm, mental and emotional harm, for not getting things to work the way we want it, but like literal, physical harm. And I think there's always just kind of that misconception that like outside of pharmacological medicine that like, oh, as long as we're doing things that are "natural," "holistic," that they don't have this power. And just as they have power to make things happen for good and health and improve situations, they also have power to then on the flip side, cause harm if we're not actually experienced enough to do it. And I think that is such a major disservice that we did as a greater birth worker community that the rebozo has been introduced, like you said, it's just this thing that can be used for for anything and you don't even have to have a particularly good, like, reason or knowledge or rationale for using it that it's just something that like is always good. 

Montse Olmos  15:08  
Yeah I think it. Well, I like the way that you put it like, just because it's natural, it doesn't mean that it cannot cause cause harm. Or it doesn't mean that you don't have to, like, learn it in depth. When I started as a doula in our training. I mean, in my training, I wasn't presented with a lot of different tools and gadgets to use. My training was more focused on like, how to be an advocate and how to like, help prevent traumatic birth outcomes, because my training was very much focused on birth being a political act, and the dangers of black and indigenous women, and birthing people going into the hospitals right into public hospitals. So it was more around that. But then later on, just as a, for example, I was a member of the New York City doula collective, which is a very famous doula organization in New York. And I remember just seeing my colleagues, my fellow doulas, using things like essential oils, or homeopathy, right. And I've used essential oils in my life, I've used homeopathic medicine, sometimes it's like the quickest thing that you have to take care of something of an ailment within your family, and it's easily accessible at the store. And it works. Right. So I know it within that context. But I thought it was interesting how as doulas we are told that it's okay, to go into the birthing space of someone else into the birthing ceremony of someone else. And use basically whatever we want to use, right? You can use the essential oils, you can use a homeopathic medicine, you can pull out your rebozo and do things. And I think about and I'm like, well, for essential oils, you have to know what you're using and why you're using it. There are strong ones that can cause adverse or severe effects in someone's body, like clary sage, for example. And then if we look at homeopathy and like, I don't know if there's ever been any danger to come in homeopathic medicine, but I know that you go to school for it. I know that you go study homeopathic medicine, you go to school for it. And question, I think that that also doesn't happen in that same way. Why do people think that you can grab this thing external for what you're doing? Right. And so there's traditional midwives that are also not all of them, but some of them do. There's some others, like Mayte who integrate the rebozo in the work that they do, there's sobadoros, so the rebozos, in the context of a practitioner, is one more thing that you integrate into your work. But you're you have to know what you're doing, right? practiced for many years, how to use your hands, you know, within a indigenous traditional context, you know, physiology and, you know, anatomy and biomechanics, and you understand the body in that way. And in order to understand that you don't have to go to university, you don't have to go and complete these extensive academic trainings, can also be learned just with your hands in daily practice. But it takes so many years learning also just got extracted from summer loaders, and was it as who use it, and just apply on its own to birth by anyone who doesn't have all those years of experience with the body. And so that's really weird scene, right like that are also being taken out of its original context and diluted and being commercialized and capitalized for the I want to say "benefit" because, yes, there can be issues in situations and I'm sure that it has helped a lot of people. And also now seeing folks who are being physically harmed with, like the story that might they shared his testimony of the consequences that happen when you share ancestral wisdom, without any sense of responsibility. When you share ancestral wisdom as a natural remedy, an alternative as something that's just holistic, that is natural. And because of that, it's sold with that there's no consequences to it, that you can possibly have one because it's natural, right, holistic. And what we're saying is like, yes, the reversal can be beneficial in many ways, but Let's not just dismiss it as something alternative, natural, holistic, and then central practice that involves practice science, it involves knowing the systems of the body, there's science behind it. And one of the ways in which indigenous healing being delegitimized or dismissed or seen as savages, is that our medicines are not recognized as such, our systems for healing are not taken seriously. Or not taken, you know, just kind of like how Chinese medicine right you go and study, to be a Chinese doctor there years is behind that. And there are institutions that provide licenses and and it comes from an ethical practice, it's part of a body of knowledge that belongs to a culture, right, maybe we don't have institutions where you going certified, because our learning and our ways of sharing knowledge been built within this, that it comes from, and it's going to happen differently every community. And so when folks say, Well, I really want to learn how to use it. So I want to know how to practice seriously professionally, well, you have order that uses it, and that wants to teach you and you have to go and community with your life with them. And have that level of commitment to it. You know? Yeah, that's what I guess.

Mayte Alcot  21:51  
Well, I think it's really important to acknowledge how we've kind of bastardized all those practices in general, right. So let's talk about herbalism. Herbalism is something that can be very dangerous. There's so many levels to herbalism. But first of all, we are overly using herbs because of the fact that we believe because they're natural, they cannot harm us. And that's a big issue. Right? So there's that nobody's doing any classes, people are just kind of doing what they've heard what they've seen, which is, it can be fine. And it can also be problematic. So with all of that being said, then there's also the fact that herbs are medicine, and we no longer see them as such. We no longer see them as sir, right. And then we we often do that to ancestral wisdom, we don't see any science behind it, or we don't understand it. So then we end up saying, Oh, it's okay to do whatever we won't fit without looking at everything else. Like when it comes to herbalism. We need more, we need to know what the lifestyle is we need to know is this person feeling? What is their mental health, right? What can we help with what is their blood type different herbs will react differently with different blood types, and sometimes will give you the adverse effect. And we hear this a lot with like valerian root, right? Oh, it puts you to sleep. But then there's this one percentage that doesn't go to sleep on it, and it wakes you up. That's actually type O's, we cannot sleep on it. And there's so much more science behind it, there's so much more there that we're not listening to anymore. We're not acknowledging anymore. Same with the rebozo so I also forgot to say I've had an apprenticeship from age seven to 15. That's why eight years before I was allowed to touch a person on my own. So that's also something to acknowledge that when it comes to ancestral wisdom, when it comes to the way that we are given knowledge, traditionally, it is a it's years long of apprenticeship of sitting there, of respecting right and acknowledging its mentorship, apprenticeship and accountability and accountability, as my friend Emily says, is love. And so I just wanted to kind of add that on with everything that Montse was saying about, you know, how we are supposed to know more about the body and know more things before we apply anything on anyone else.

Maggie, RNC-OB  24:10  
Yeah, that's so important. And I think you both hit on this, just this the bigger overarching issue where there's both the piece of like, grabbing on to things that are are not ours. And that, that characteristic that I think we see in certainly speaking for, like white birth workers in the US who get who learn about all of the ways that like the medical industrial complex and birthing our birth system here in the hospitals is really failing, birthing people. And so, you know, they feel this urgency that like, Okay, I need to act now I have to do something about it. And that's, that's good, and that's powerful energy to harness. But I think because of that, so many of us, then we end up scrambling to pick up again, "tools," methods to help. And we don't always take enough time to actually learn about them to understand the full, you know, kind of the the science and methodology behind them and why they work and how they work. And that in our eagerness to like, act and make a difference and be supportive, that we end up overstepping our place. And I feel like that is something that as I've learned more about, like white supremacy culture, and how that has infiltrated everything in the US in the way that we learn about birth and birth support, I feel like that piece of wanting to change stuff, but not being in community, you know, like you said, You're not undergoing an apprenticeship...you maybe you only have access, to, you know, a doula training that's for a day or a couple afternoons and then you feel like you're just kind of like, tossed out there. And you're supposed to do stuff, but you don't have a community necessarily to draw into, you don't have that piece of the accountability that goes with that, to keep you on track. And to make sure that you're that you are ensuring safety, and that you are being you know, respectful in your care, I think it was Sonya Renee Taylor, who was talking about accountability, you know, can only happen in relationship. And so if you haven't established relationships with folks who can call you out, when you are doing things that are inappropriate, and problematic, and appropriative, then what do you have, you're just kind of like floating along. And I think so many of us and I speak for myself, as well, like, as a white birth worker in the US, you see all these things that are happening. And you just think, like, Yes, I need to act, I need to do something right now. And so you, you try to reach out. But if you don't do that, in a way, that actually is like rooted in your own cultural processes, that is rooted in the way that you can and should actually show for people in the skill set that you have in the time that you have to devote to the study complementary and alternative medicines, then you're actually just going to do harm. And I think that's something that's really hard for people to, to hold and to understand that. While we can all be wanting different from, you know, our hospital based birth system we can, we can be upset at the constant over medicalization of birth. But that the answer to that is not to just go out and get 15 different trainings or certifications in everything under the sun to try to cover that by like you as as one singular person. And I don't know if you all can speak a little bit more if you've kind of seen that that culture of that same has been reflected to you as you've been doing knowledge shares and working more with people through this.

Mayte Alcot  27:55  
Yeah, I think that playing out right now is a good description of what's happening with with doulas, right. So there's a huge amount of responsibility that is being placed on us precisely because we live in a reality that but it's not really serving people the way that it should, that we have a broken medical system, not just in the United States, but really globally. I mean, the C section rate in Mexico is off the charts. Like that's just the standard practice right; episiotomies & cesareans are just standard practice in Mexico. So it's not just the US is globally. And so I really do see doulas scrambling to get all those skills and tools that they can so that they can be of best service to their clients. And I know that the use of that it also can I just got dragged into that. And I know that it comes from a good intention of like I want to be able to help people in situations of need. I want to be able to know what to do. And I also want to say that like doulas, we are not just a we're not supposed to be a band aid. The limitations are being placed on us that you know, we are going to guarantee those natural births or guarantee those those great birth experiences when in reality, doulas are going into the public medical system fighting the same oppressions and abusive behaviors as our clients. You know, I can see where where it comes to where the need to have the tools to have the skill and compassionate towards I've definitely felt the same way before. In my first five births as a doula were really traumatic experiences. I mean, the very first five births that I had to do to complete my certification with ancient doula services, ancient sound doula services in Brooklyn, I had to go into public hospitals in the Bronx, in Brooklyn, in Queens, and witness horrible situations of abstract obstetric abuse, like literal violence, you know, birthing people being forced into sterilization, people being being called deragatory terms, you know, in the midst of labor, nurses, just completely neglecting patients, etc. I saw some really horrible realities. And I had that same feeling of like, I need to be more prepared, I need to know as much as I can, I need to know all the things so that I can never again, just be a witness or prevent this from happening, right. And I have to like, there's a lot intention in that. But then we also have to balance that out by acknowledging that we are there to do our best, the best of our capacity, the best ability, but we are facing a bigger monster, right? A seven headed creature like some economists called capitalism, right? Well, the medical public system is that same seven headed creature, there's so many like things to to address with it, and so many horrors that come from it. And I think that also homebirth is being now seen as the alternative, right? Like, well, if you don't want to go into the hospital, and the public health system and be abused and be be treated badly, hire a home birth midwife have a doula home birth, even even their own birth scene in the home birth community, we still see how there are midwives who men to the two birds with their biases, and with their racism, and internalized superiority and white supremacy, you know. Taking that rebozo workshop, or, you know, just extracting from other cultures, we should be putting all of our time and energy and investment into Black midwifery into support for those practitioners, people like Mayte even, support them so that they can continue doing their work so that more of them can come, so that people can have more access to these... to black midwives, to indigenous midwives, and to traditional healers, who have learned in the in the correct way, because they really do feel like they're doing very crucial work. They they are the ones that know exactly how to serve their communities, they're the ones that know exactly what the what their communities need. And if we just eliminate some of the obstacles and just build a more stable path for them, then we can have much better maternal outcomes and infant outcomes in birth. Right. And I'm not the first one to be saying this, this is not groundbreaking, so many black birth workers have been doing this work for decades now. Right, since the times of the of the Grand midwives of the South, since the times of indigenous midwifery, you know, before colonial times, like who have been struggling and fighting for this since forever. And yet, you know, here we are today, discussing whether the rebozo is a sacred textile or just a tool, you know, and sometimes I get tired, a little tired of the conversation, like, I feel like this should be known, they should be foundational, right? That indigenous technologies should be respected should be treated as such, should be regarded as science. And that not just anyone can come and apply them however, they please, that there is a learning process that comes with it. And that if we just support the people that are already doing it; we'd have a much better outcome, right?

Maggie, RNC-OB  34:06  
Yes, Montse ended on such a important high note there, if we just support the people already doing this work, we would have a better outcome. It was such a privilege to get the opportunity to speak with Montse & Mayte for quite a long time. And we really dove into all these issues surrounding you know, the rebozo individually, and as a signifier for the greater cultural appropriation that happens in birth work every day. And then as our conversation continued, we were able to really dive into some of the pieces around accountability and ally ship and being an accomplice, which I think are all really important topics in their own right. And so we're splitting this interview into two different parts. So you've just heard part one, and I hope you'll be able to have some time now to reflect on everything that Mayte & Montse shared and to start to apply some of this to your own practice, to start thinking about it through your lens, what you bring to birth work in your background, your experiences, your trainings, and just be allowed to sit with it. I know a lot of is hard to hear, we're talking about things that are hurtful and harmful to experience. And we realized this episode, may have brought up times when your work and your culture were appropriated, where your ancestral wisdom was dismissed, where you were hurt by the white supremacy and racism present in virtual communities. We also know it can be challenging to recognize these harmful behaviors in ourselves when they've been so intertwined in our trainings and our culture. And we're grateful for the opportunity to unpack some of this with you. We appreciate you all being in here and tuning into all that we have to share. And we invite you as you process to connect with us. We would love to learn more about what you took from this episode and what you're bringing forward. So you can certainly find us at Your BIRTH Partners community, our Facebook group, and we're Your BIRTH Partners across social media. We'll also be sharing some more resources in the show notes that link to Montse & Mayte's upcoming knowledge share about the rebozo that really is an encompassing dive into everything that we started to touch on today and the opportunity for a lot more processing and sharing in a supportive open group experience. And we're delighted to be sponsoring a slot in that; so we'll be sharing more about that in our community group this week. We'll also have in our show notes, more information about recognizing cultural appropriation in the birthworker community for those of you who want to examine this more fully. So thank you so much for being here with us and we look forward to sharing part two of this interview next week. Till next time!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai