In this continuation of our conversation about cultural appropriation with Montse Olmos, Mujer dela Tierra, and Mayte Acolt, The Womb Doula, we dive into accountability & anti-racism in birthwork rooted in Mayte & Montse's background as Tutunaku Birth Companions from Mexico. We discuss how these themes have come up as they have navigated the response to their petition requesting removal of Rebozo training from doula workshops.
Join us as we discuss:
~white saviorism in birthwork
~accountability in community...calling in & calling out
~birthwork as a political act
~examining our positionality as birthworkers
If you missed part 1, click here or head back one episode!
In this continuation of our conversation about cultural appropriation with Montse Olmos, Mujer dela Tierra, and Mayte Acolt, The Womb Doula, we dive into accountability & anti-racism in birthwork rooted in Mayte & Montse's background as Tutunaku Birth Companions from Mexico. We discuss how these themes have come up as they have navigated the response to their petition requesting removal of Rebozo training from doula workshops.
Join us as we discuss:
~white saviorism in birthwork
~accountability in community...calling in & calling out
~birthwork as a political act
~examining our positionality as birthworkers
If you missed part 1, click here or head back one episode!
Maggie, RNC-OB 0:06
Welcome to Your BIRTH Partners, where our mission is to cultivate inclusive collaborative birthcare communities rooted in autonomy, respect and equity. I'm your host, Maggie Runyon, labor and birth nurse, educator and advocate. And I invite you to join us in conversation as we step out of our silos, break down barriers and hierarchies, and step into the future of better birth care.
Hey there, and welcome back to the show. This week, we are continuing part two of the conversation that I had the pleasure of having with Montse Olmos, and Mayte Acolt, which we started last week. So I had the chance to speak with Mayte & Montse for a really long time. And in the course of our conversation, we talked a lot about cultural appropriation and how that shows up in the birth community and holistic wellness communities in general. And in the first piece, we really spoke at length about their work specifically around cultural appropriation of the rebozo and how that has been co opted by a lot of white birth organizations. So if you didn't have a chance, I definitely recommend for you to look back one episode and catch our first half of the interview. And then for this part, I wanted to separate this out, because we started to really dive into themes around accountability for community members, and discussing more of what it looks like to move from being an ally to being an accomplice in, in this work and birth work, which needs to be anti racist at its core. And I'm so grateful for Montse & Mayte for everything that they really call out in this and, and how much they explain of their process. And they continue to want to see birthworks change, you know, these are the conversations that I wish I had been having as I started out as a birth worker. This is the information that we need that I needed as as a nurse as a birth worker, you know, as a human caring for other humans. And speaking for myself, as a white nurse, I know how easily these issues are ignored in white dominated spaces, like we often see in nursing and medical and midwifery schools in doula trainings and all other births from childbirth education, lactation support, to you know, all of them. And it is way too common for these themes to be ignored or dismissed. And to not take time to really reflect on it. And so especially speaking to all my other fellow white birth workers out there, who are contemplating this and want to make sure that they are showing up authentically in you know, your own practice, as someone who cares for people and is given such an intimate, you know, glimpse into part of their lives, I hope that this conversation is helpful for you kind of framing your work and your practice and the way that you want to move forward and how we can all come together to learn more and make mistakes and try again and keep doing better. So, I am going to welcome you into this conversation with Montse wrapping up one piece that she had left us with at the end of our first part of the interview, and then I'll go right over to Mayte. On to the show!
Montse Olmos 3:44
...And yet you know here we are today discussing whether the Rebozo is a sacred textile or just a tool, you know, and sometimes I get tired a little tired of the conversation like should we be explaining these things I feel like this should be known, this is basic, this should be foundational right? That indigenous technologies should be respected should be treated as such should be regarded as science and that not just anyone can apply them however they please that there is a learning process that comes with it and that if we just support the people that are already doing it we can have a much better outcome right?
Mayte Acolt
I completely agree with you on it that's the thing we can be supporting these Black midwives, these Indigenous midwives, we can be helping the people that know exactly what they need for the for Black Indigenous People of Color, unfortunately, and me & Montse have had this conversation on a live in the past there is racism within midwifery there is white supremacy within midwifery and we're seeing it very often. Homebirth will not be the same experience. If you get a Black and Indigenous, a Mexican, a Guatemalan, El Salvadoran, ya know, experience, and so on and so forth, then it would be with a white midwife that doesn't understand cultures that sometimes even fears them. And I've had this conversation before, right? and cultural competency is not a real thing. I've tried to teach it so many times. And at the end of the day, there's always someone that just doesn't understand someone's culture, and they're afraid of that thing. Right? There's so much more there than just about going into the home birth experience. It's not just not learning that about a there's so much more to this and people need to do specifically birth workers have to do better. midwives, doulas, postpartum, whatever, they need to do better for all of us, if that makes any sense. And we need to get this whole white savior thing out of the way as well. Like, you don't need to be the one that services, but you can help those people. I think that's something that Montse always talks about difference between...share what you always say, Montse.
Montse Olmos
So Maggie, you've been in the in the knowledge share about the Rebozo when we talk about difference between being an ally and being an accomplice, I feel like ally ship has been co opted diluted. It's a word that is so easily thrown around, right, like being an ally, I'm an ally, I'm an ally. And I think that to be an ally, sometimes all you have to do is just post stuff on social media. And that's it, you know, and then your real life doesn't have to translate. But when we talk about being an accomplice, I really do propose that folks do their best to become accomplices, because an accomplice is someone who stands right by you, at the worst of times, right? So if we are out there at a protest on the streets, and let's say I'm undocumented, or I'm a Black person, and you're my white accomplice who's with me at the protest, you know, that if someone is going to get arrested, or someone is going to get hurt by the cops, it should be you. Because the interaction with cops is not going to be the same. If it's a Brown and Black body than if it's a White body, right. And we know that, because we've been seeing it over and over, we've been seeing Black men being brutalized and murdered on the news by police, right. And so when I think about that, I'm like, we don't really need allies, we don't need people posting black squares, we don't need people, you know, putting the, the hashtag, online, we need folks that are with us and are ready to put their bodies on the line and are ready to risk their livings or comfort for us. Right when you know, shit hits the fan. And so I think that someone who's an accomplice uses all of their resources and privileges that they may have. And this can be the same as speaking English, having access to social media to a social media platform, or maybe owning land, whatever it is that you that you recognize as a privilege to gather all of that, and then build something, build a platform or build a space and just hand it over, you literally just hand it over to Black people who are doing the work and who need the resources and who need the support. So being an accomplice is a lot about giving up power, right? recognizing where you hold power and just giving it up or redistributing it in a way that you know, you're going to impact communities in a positive way. And a lot of that work involves asking people what they need, right? So if you are going to go into a community of color, the first thing should be like, Am I welcome here? Like do people actually want me here? And if they do, like, so what can I do for you? What do you need? What What do you need that I can give you? Or that I can work with? Like that should be a basic question always. And a lot of what we see in birth work is like the opposite. Right? Like, you know, us trying to be saviors a striving to do what we think is best for people before asking. And considering ourselves allies just because we are, you know, putting up a charity donation here and there or you know, a hashtag or an image online when it happens outside of the virtual space. But I also don't want to dismiss the virtual space as you know something that doesn't work or that is not legitimate because a lot of good activism work happens online. And because you know, governments nowadays, they know that we are connecting online, they know that we are building entire communities online, and that we are reaching far places. And they know that a lot of the awareness and a lot of the just expanded consciousness that we're experiencing right now, in this time in this era, is coming from the fact that we have access to so much information online, right? No longer can cops just hide the fact that they killed the Black men. Like now it's, it's online, you can see it. And I'm not saying you know, go and watch all those videos, because I don't think that's also part of the solution. But what I'm saying is like, we can use the digital space as part of our activism as part of our moral responsibility to be accomplices to communities of color, it can be one more way of doing it, but it shouldn't be the only way in which we do it. We should also just go to concrete actions in real life and use the the powers and privileges that we all have, in one way or another, to benefit those communities.
Mayte Acolt
But that's why we get censored, right? So if you are someone who has a huge platform, and you are following a Black Indigenous person of color, a creator, that is getting censored, like myself all the time, shout me out, share my stuff, shout Montse out, share her stuff, because she talks about all the stuff that is considered not within community guidelines. I really don't know what I share that gets me censored, but I do. But that's the whole point, right? Because we're only speaking our truths. And we're trying to educate, we're trying to elevate you. Because when you know better, you do better, right? And so that is the goal. That is the end goal with both me and one say this isn't about us. This is about something bigger, it's it's about our communities. This is about people who don't have access to this knowledge, this is about awakening us, right?
Montse Olmos
Yes, Mayte. And with that, I'm so happy Mayte said that because some of the backlash that we received from the petition was from midwives in professional midwives in Mexico. And I and maybe we can go into that a little bit the difference between a professional midwife and a traditional midwife. So professional midwives put out a statement against the petition, and they put it out in in Spanish and English, I believe. And, you know, I guess they also watched our lives, the the live videos that Mayte and I have done. And based on what the petition said as well. One of the the gossips or arguments that was created from this is that, you know, Mayte and I are doing this, just to bring attention to ourselves and to promote our class, our bi weekly class on the Rebozo. And I have been very vocal about clarifying what it is that we do, because I think that it's it's easy to just kind of assume without really knowing what we do. And and you're a witness, Maggie, because you've been in that in there, yes. So we don't really teach birth techniques, right. So you know, when you come into the knowledge share, you don't come to learn birth techniques, or anything to apply to another body. The Rebozo has evolved from other textiles ancestors of the Rebozo. So to now write and why that should happen, and what percent for us, and why we see it as a sacred a sacred textile. And and once we, we share that with you, we literally go into a few things that you can practice for self care, that are non invasive, that are very low impact, and that you know, if you if you wish to share them within your family, you're more than welcome to do so. But our intention is that be relationship with a role sourced, using it on your own body and a daily part of your daily care. And then is to take that work and use someone else and learn more about it, then we can we encourage you to go in that can do that for you. They can they can share that. And then we even go into things like spiritual inquiry, right? Like how do you connect to your own lineage to your own family stories? Because maybe there is medicine there for you. Maybe there are birthing traditions there that you should know about. Right? Because that would be empowering and that also would create a cultural connection to your own people. Maybe your your original land, to your ancestry. And once you have that cultural connection, then there's no need to come and appropriate other things right and talk about how cultural disconnection is the root of cultural appropriation, not knowing where you come from not knowing what your story is. So that's really what the knowledge share is about. But something that Mayte and I became very aware of this whole situation of the petition and by the midwives, is that the conversation about race identity is definitely not the same in the in the US. And in Mexico. Right now in Mexico, we are still on a path of accepting mestizaje. Right. So mestizos, right like is this mix of the white Spaniards, the colonizers that arrived in Mexico and the Indigenous people, and then in some communities, we also add the African root, right? From all the slaves that were being that were brought over. So we have this very complex identity in Mexico, right. And these are very polarized realities, where you have people who are in city or urban, who grow up in that way. And then we have all the Indigenous communities, still in the rural part of Mexico, and that are constantly struggling all the attacks by the Mexican government. And so and traditional midwifery falls on that, you know, traditional midwifery is constantly being attacked by the government to disappear, basically. And so we have this reality in Mexico that is so diverse, and so multicultural. And the conversation about race is definitely not happening in the same way at the same pace. And at the same level, as it is in the United States, right. In the United States. We talk about whiteness, we talk, we talk about Indigeneity. And then those whose decisions are not quite clear yet, you know, so it's very easy for, you know, someone who's a professional midwife, for example, who come from the city, it's very easy for a person like that to learn from a midwife or an Indigenous community to learn and then take it, take whatever they learned and go and sell it, which is when they're also seeing right now. That's really what's happening in Mexico, a lot of professional midwives are taking elements from traditional midwifery, such as the Rebozo, but also the styles & ceremonies, the closing of the hips, etc, in those those elements, and traveling around the world to sell them, right found out that a lot of those midwives are hired by DONA international, they go to conferences, they present on the web, also, they have partnerships, and they do business come in and teach on the Rebozo and teach about just traditional practices in birth. And, and we got the impression that one of the, by our petition is because literally, this is something that is messing with their with their income, for lack of a better way to say... there's a conflict of interests, basically, because the Rebozo has become a huge market, and sold and it's not just the US, it's Russia, into Europe, it's Brazil. And a lot of those classes and workshops are being taught by professional Mexican midwives. And a lot of people don't know the difference between the two, between the professional midwife and the traditional midwife, or Mexico. But that really doesn't mean anything. You can be white and be born in Mexico, you can be born in Mexico and be from a super from the city. It's important to remember that Mexico has 68 languages, 69 If we count language, 70 if we count Spanish. From those 68 different Indigenous languages, we have 300, more than 300 variants of them. And that just speaks to the amount of diversity in indigenous communities that we have. And not all of them use that are also only some of them. And the ones that do want to share. Some of them may share. And that's okay. It's important to respect that. And each community has a different story and relationship to it. So yeah, I want to provide that context. You know, just for folks to understand that that.
Maggie, RNC-OB 19:46
Yeah, I think that's important. I think that's saying that speaking from the way that the us a lot of times way we position ourselves in the world and the way that that influences the way that we think about other cultures. I think we have a instinct, to be like reductive in it, right? And so to say like, okay, yes, this is like the person who's speaking for Mexico, this is the person who's speaking for the Indigenous people of that. And I think what what I have witnessed in kind of the fallout from the petition that y'all put together is that there is that sense of people, you can always find someone to agree with you, right? You can always find a study to agree with you, you can always find social media posts, you can always find like someone else who's in your corner. And so it feels like there was kind of a piling on then for organizations who, you know, have been affiliated with teaching Rebozo. And they were very eager, obviously, to see that there were some, you know, professional Mexican midwives, who were kind of willing to step out and say, like, Oh, no, it's okay. We can all use our Rebozo, it's fine. And while that is their experience, that's their opinion, that's their truth. I think there is a place that reminder for all of us that just like you explained, there isn't just one, you know, there isn't just one piece of it, there isn't one answer. And that if you're finding yourself, you know, as we consider issues around, not only, you know, the Rebozo, but cultural appropriation at large when you're finding yourself in that situation where you just want to find someone else who already agrees with the way you feel about it, that you need to reflect on that, you know, that you need to dig a little deeper. And I want, in full transparency, you know, when I first saw about the petition, I had this initial little like gut reaction like, Oh, no, does that mean that this is going to like negatively impact birth and that people are going to have less access to, you know, the Rebozo and then due to talking with, you know, several friends and colleagues, other birth workers and taking time to process, that initial feeling and realize like, "okay, right, I am reacting to my frustration with the over medicalization of birth." That is, like you would point to that is not solved by one person, it's not solved by, you know, one, one thing, or one role, it is solved by a huge systematic change that has happened. So, I think, for some of us, when we have these, like, quick reactions, that we need to dig deeper and then realize, okay, where is that actually coming from? What are you worried about? What is making you seek this out to begin with? You know, to your point, like, are you? Are you going for a Rebozo certification? And, you know, you're going to use essential oils, and herbs and all these things that are, that are great and good and important. But you know, are you doing that with understanding of that greater context? Are you doing that with that saviorism piece, which I have totally fallen into before, where you feel like, okay, yes, if I can just arm myself with enough knowledge, I can fix this. And that's, that's not how this work is done. You know, we need like you spoke to we need representative care, we need more Black and Brown and Indigenous midwives, who are able to provide culturally relevant care, to birthing people, because there is so much evidence that shows that that is actually what we need. And that is, you know, their stories, proven experience. And there is so many studies out there for people who feel good looking at, you know, tons and tons of data altogether. I feel like when we, when we see these moments pop up that allow us to like question ourselves, that we need to go down that route. And we need to explore a little bit more about our positionality. And this is for, you know, each of us as different birth workers, all of us have different, we have different roles, we have different kind of jobs and responsibilities that we hold in the birth space. And so really like tuning into what that is, and what it isn't, and reflecting on the way that we can actually support everyone else in their world to have that community feel of birth, instead of feeling like it is something that we each need to be taking on like our own, like you said, I am so grateful that you all put together the petition, not because you needed it to uplift the you know, the knowledge share y'all do. But that knowledge share was so powerful. And I've talked to other birthworkers who did it as well, who had that same experience of really being able to finally like put together some of these pieces and understand more about how all of this, you know, kind of the the cultural appropriation, the white supremacy, racism, the just the abuses that are so present every day in our birth system, how those all are intertwined and the role that we play in it and then being able to really process that piece of stepping out of it, of kind of being able to step back a little bit from our experience, and be able to work through it. And so I just really, I appreciate how much work you all did to to build that, and to cultivate a space that really allows for that sort of authentic reflection, because I think it's something that is, it's sorely missing in a lot of the ways that we, we learn about birth, a lot of trainings we do there isn't that, that space for and I think it's really important. And then one of the last things I want to ask you all about is, you know, the where do we go from here in terms of like holding, holding each other accountable, those who who we are in relationship and in holding like these bigger organizations accountable about the way that we want to see, you know, education and awareness around birth support change.
Mayte Acolt 25:34
Yeah, like, first off, who out there is doing any kind of releases or acknowledgments of the Rebozo? are they teaching the Rebozo? And I just said also, but are they teaching anything that requires more than a weekend training? And I say this because I took I took the DONA training I did the whole weekend. I definitely learned about 15 minutes or so. And I knew it prior. But I definitely got to see how that happened. Right. But they also teach you some some trainers teach you essential oils, they teach you pressure, pressure points. I mean, there's a whole class of spinning babies, right? are they teaching you anatomy and physiology? are they teaching you biomechanics? Right, are they continue all those things? I think it's opening your eyes and acknowledging that. What are they teaching you? And are they taking the proper way? Are they doing it properly? Is there mentorship after they're done? Right, that's one way of kind of putting your money into those into, you know, organizations that are doing that work that are bringing in those teachers that are of Indigenous descent that do have programs of mentorship, right, that are there for more than just the money. We are very capitalistic here. And it's all about the money. And it's all about how fast can I get this knowledge? How quickly can I be certified? And how quickly can I do what I want to do to make money? Because a lot of people, a lot of us who have a lot of tools under the belt their belts, it's not about how they can help the birthing person, but it's about how can I charge more? And I've seen that in doula groups, right? We've all seen that. Hey, I'm charging $500. But I'm thinking that if I learn belly binding, I can totally charge like $600 or more, right? It's also holding those folks accountable to that. That mentality. I don't know. Montse, do you have anything else that you are thinking?
Montse Olmos
I'm thinking about just the response of major organizations to that petition? Like some of them, were very quick to make a statement. And for all those organizations, I'm really grateful because they didn't think about it twice. They were like, okay, someone is saying something about this to all those are the CAPPA, DTI, Cornerstone, Manhattan Birth, Birthday Presence, etc. Ancient Song because they took a stand right away. They didn't have to think about it twice. But then we also had the case of organizations like DONA, for example, that are just really not open to learning or unlearning what they think that they know about Indigeneity or thought of also. And so I think that just as far as accountability goes, I also saw that video by Sonya Renee Taylor talking about how accountability happens in relationship. Right. And when it's outside of relationship, it's punishment. And I do think that, you know, for example, I am not in relationship with DONA, right? I don't know anyone from doing that, personally, the conversation with DONA began with a petition. And so I can see how maybe some of the ways in which we call for accountability, specifically with DONA was a little punitive, like on the side of punishment. But I also want to say and that's a learning experience, obviously, for me, for Mayte. For an organizzationa as large as DONA, I don't feel bad about using punitive measures, because I feel like they hold a tremendous amount of power and responsibility to others. And I feel like, you know, they should be the first ones to say, we're listening, and we're taking action. You don't know, for example, they're not really doing it. They're just kind of saying, "Well, our friends, the professional midwives said that it was okay to continue doing our thing." That's where you stand, you know. So, moving forward, I really would love to see and taking a stand on things being firm on where, where they stand without us having to do all the work for them, without us having to release petitions, having to explain to them and educate them for free and all the emotional and intellectual work that Mayte and I have put behind this. I really would like for folks to just you know, educate themselves and come forward on and take a stand on their own to push them towards it, or offer them to it or provide the reasons why, you know, it's super clear. And the reasons why should be part of our workers, right? The reasons why don't Okay, the reasons why cultural versions not okay. I think that should be part of your training as a doula, I really do urge a lot of these organizations that are training and mentoring doulas, to provide more education on anti racism work on privilege, power, cultural appropriation, all the branches from you know, that stem from white supremacy, birth workers are doing political work, birth workers are doing really important work, and they have to have a political social lens to their work, because otherwise, then they're just perpetrating white supremacy. So yeah, I think that if we all take care of ourselves, and we all educate ourselves on that end, and we do our best to just be, you know, decent human beings, then like, folks don't have to hold us accountable. And folks don't have to punish us. And I also want to acknowledge that we can be so much better about the way that we call folks in, and I include myself in this for sure. I'm learning, you know, to call in before calling out to be in relationship first, before holding folks accountable. It's a process. It's a learning process for all of us, I invite all of us to get in that learning process. And that's definitely one of the main teachings that I got from the petition. Yeah. So thank you, Maggie, for providing this space. And for, you know, inviting us to your platform.
Maggie, RNC-OB 31:49
Oh, absolutely. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate you just coming on here. This has been such a like rich conversation, and you both have shared so much of your insight and your time and your passion with us. I really appreciate it.
Mayte Alcot 31:58
Yes, thank you so much for having us. I really enjoyed it.
Maggie, RNC-OB 32:03
I am just so deeply appreciative of Mayte & Montse for coming on and sharing so much about their stories and what they've experienced and what they've seen in birth work. They are doing such tremendous, hard and inspiring work. And I'm appreciative to everyone else out there, all the other folks in the birth community, especially the other Indigenous and Black and Brown, birthing folks and community members who take the time to call this out, who stepped forward and, and do so much and give so much of themselves, trying to help wrongs that truly are not their responsibility to fix. And I appreciate all of you who are out there calling in and calling out folks in your community when they need it.
I know that was a heavy and hopefully thought provoking conversation. I know it can be really challenging to examine our selves and our practices and our positionality within birth. And so it was created an opportunity for you to reflect on those. And I hope that you have people who you can turn to and be in community with to discuss the impact that your work has and to examine the ways that cultural appropriation could be showing up your work or has in the past, and what your path is forward, so that we can create a birth community that is based on mutual respect and appreciation, and keeps all of us working together. Certainly as you go to process that we welcome your comments and your feedback. You can join our community group, Your BIRTH Partners community on Facebook, and we also welcome you to follow us across social media we're Your BIRTH Partners, it is really important to continue these conversations as we digest material and process how this shows up in our work. And I cannot more highly recommend looking into the knowledge share that Montse & Mayte offer. It is coming up next on May 11. And we will share details about that in the show notes and on social media so that you'll have a chance to follow up with them and learn more with them and interest you. Thanks for being here with this conversation with us. Till next time!